I would like all POC to find a new metaphor where we can dump all the ism’s together. We need to define our uniqueness and our contribution to humankind.

That is why I see all strife as part and parcel of the hate fuelled dehumanising propoganda.

My personal desire would be to find that root cause and rip it out.

I know that I cannot do this by myself and thankfully it is good to see others like yourself, also journeymen.

I am asking that because in the coal mine Coventry, UK where I worked (1977/8) a new bangladeshi lad joined. unfortunately he was a skinny little runt of a character his name was Ahmed, the guys in my shift asked his name and then one of them said “what kind of name is that” he lifted his badge and his number was 737 so he said, ” we’ll call you number 7″ and it stuck. The name i.e. 7 would be called over the tannoy and nonone thought anything of it. I felt uncomfortable but I deliberately called him by his name.

Another of my first experiences of ” otherness” as Ron puts it, was at the age of around 7-8. When I saw the sign outside the colonial club by the harbour in Fort Bombay now called Mumbai in India, my dad and I were walking into. He was dressed in his naval whites and his skin is black and I am mixed blood. The sign said ” Dogs and natives not allowed”.

Thank you for your welcome. Passion is good I have loads of it.

I do understand your definition of “racism” and certainly respect your view and, especially, your persepective on the issue. Racism, as you define it, is quite tragically real. It persists and is detrimental to all – both its practitioners and its victims.

Racism – however defined – is an evil that must be identified and fought at every opportunity. I know that. On my own blog, I have written of it repeatedly from my viewpoint. I will continue to do so as my eyes are continulally be opened and my mind expanded by sites like this. Thank you all for your acceptance and perspectives.

I wish you all continued success and all blessings on you, your families and your lives,

Ron

Now, your definition of “racism” is indeed broader than mine. That is the basis of our difference of opinion on this topic. What is called “racism”… I see as “White Supremacy/Eurocentric Superiority Thinking and Practice”. Simply, it is a power relationship dynamic based primarily on the color of one’s skin. I agree that there are also more subtle and complex dynamics that are at work, but when you “peel” the onion of that “beast” which we call and understand as “racism”, for me at least, that is what it comes down to. I also see a lot of value in Francis’s dissertation. It’s valid and Extreme Color Arousal , as far as I’m concerned is indeed a mental disorder or at least the basis of one, and defining it as Extreme Color-Aroused Emotion, Ideation and Behavior, Disorder (ECEIBD), works for me.

I enjoy intellectual discussions/exercises such as this one. It brings some clarity, enlightenment and helps us re-identify and shine the light on the what are the new and old strategies and tactics of this “beast”. But for those of us who experience it, whether in it’s subtle form or more atrocious nature, this intellectual exercise is more of a daily survival planning session or military campaign strategy meeting.

Blessings to you also.

thefreeslave wrote:

Could you explain why you think the US is one of the least racist societies on the planet? And, what is the (leading) cause of every educational and economic disparity – in your opinion?

thefreeslave, I believe that no where on earth is discrimination more thoroughly legislated against than in this country. There are more remedies against discrimination and more institutions available to assist those who have been truly harmed by racism in the United States. In what other country can a second-generation black man rise from the poverty of the immigrant class to become the Secretary of State of the nation? Where else can a poor Mississippi black woman climb the societal ladders to become one the best loved and riches women in our society? I could give many other examples. These are my beliefs. One can certainly argue that in other countries, perhaps such legislation is not required because the people, themselves, do not hold racist views. I would disagree simply from my original premise: namely, that racism is a universal human trait.

As to what actually is the cause of educational and economic disparity, I would posit that the “cause” cultural. While all men are created equal, they are the end product of their experiences and engrained value systems and what they achieve in life is the result of their individual efforts and personal drive. I believe that personal values – education, hard wark, perseverance, etc. – determine, for the most part. one’s success or failure in this society. When children are derided in schools by their fellow students for endeavoring to succeed and learn, that is part of the problem. I still beleive that, in this country, one can do anything they believe strongly enough in doing. Perhaps that is not always true, but I believe that it more true in this society than in most.

asabanga wrote:

I will make 2 points in regards to Ron’s comment. One… is that the genocide committed by the Hutu against the Tutsi’s and the current genocide being perpetuated by the Sudanese government, through the janjaweed in Darfur, is NOT based on “racism”. Tribalism and religious fundamentalism has more to do with these conflicts, than any notions and/or ideology based on “race”. Second, comparing the experiences and/or effects of oppression among groups, whether historical or current, is usually done to justify or at least minimize the discrimination and/or oppression that another particular group is currently facing (whether that was the intend or not). Therefore, there is no “real” value in such a comparison (other than for historical information). And if this comparison is used as the premise for quoting Ghandi (which by the way is one of my favorite quotes), then the quote itself is useless in affecting any sort of change.

Asa, I must disagree simply because my definition of racism seems broader than yours. My definition is that racism is based on a sense of “otherness.” Let me explain: when any people believe that suppression, murder and rape is justified in their minds because of a perceived “otherness” in a subjugated people, that is racism. Whether the perception of the “other” is based on tribalism, appearance, religious belief, politics or whatever, it is – in my broad sense – racism. The color of one’s skin can be, in the most narrow sense, a basis for racism but it is not the one responsible for the most horrific of mankind’s racism under my broader definition.

Again, I apologize for any offense I have made to anyone’s sensibilities. I was making a poor attempt at broadening the discussion. I wish you all peace and blessings,

Ron

I don’t think it can be applied to the slavery that occured in the USA or the West Indies for one reason: that type of slavery thrived on the basis of the divide and conquer theory on the shade of how black a person was. I am currently reading a book about on slavery and emancipation on the French Caribbean and in my view, it was a time where colour was the basis for racism (look at how many words are in the French language just to judge how dark or light a black person is — mulatre, métisse, négresse, capresse etc).

I agree with thefreeslave and Asa concerning Rwanda. I think it may be easy in ways to see Rwanda from a Western perspective of it being a racial extermination but tribalism is more complex than that.

I think Ron meant that in the future tense…lol!

I agree with Asa re. Ron’s comments. Tribal warfare, even on the scale of Rwanda, is not the same as the scientific oppression that shackled the entire continent of Africa, North and South America. There’s an equivalency falsely drawn to these kinds of events. Plus, who colonized Rwanda and pitted one tribe against another?

Also, slavery is one thing; what was created in the western hemisphere, sometimes called chattel slavery, is quite another. Based on color and perpetual? What socieities before the Atlantic slave trade had a slavery like this? Where humans were regarded and treated like beasts? Where the women were raped systematically and created an entirely new people of hybrids? I can’t name one other slave state that has all of the features of our hemisphere’s slave system.

The other feature of the Atlantic slave trade is that it helped prop up an entire continent – Europe – laid the groundwork for the industrial revolution and turned the planet into the global, white, exploitative north and the exploited, nonwhite south. THAT slavery process is a far cry from tribe subjugating a defeated tribe for a few short years where you could buy your way out or were freed after a period.

And I’m still trying to find Western Civilization, somebody help me with that one.

I will make 2 points in regards to Ron’s comment. One… is that the genocide committed by the Hutu against the Tutsi’s and the current genocide being perpetuated by the Sudanese government, through the janjaweed in Darfur, is NOT based on “racism”. Tribalism and religious fundamentalism has more to do with these conflicts, than any notions and/or ideology based on “race”. Second, comparing the experiences and/or effects of oppression among groups, whether historical or current, is usually done to justify or at least minimize the discrimination and/or oppression that another particular group is currently facing (whether that was the intend or not). Therefore, there is no “real” value in such a comparison (other than for historical information). And if this comparison is used as the premise for quoting Ghandi (which by the way is one of my favorite quotes), then the quote itself is useless in affecting any sort of change.

But on the whole he is not particularly wrong when Hutu kill Tutsi’s.

But then why should you accept my opinion I am after all a dravidian?

Could you explain why you think the US is one of the least racist societies on the planet? And, what is the (leading) cause of every educational and economic disparity – in your opinion?

Racism is a cultural construct that has absolutely zero scientific validity. The few remaining thousand chimpanzees in Africa have more genetic diversity – “race variance” – that do the 4 billion or so humans living on our planet. We are, in the nomenclature of the geneticists, a “small species.” We have very, very little quantitative differences in the 30,000 or so genes that comprise the human genotype.

So, why does “racism” exist at all? Anthropologically, it has given “justification” for the savagery of man against man. If you wanted a tribe’s land or women, you could allay whatever guilt existed with noting that the enemy was “different” – thus, not equal – to you and your kinsmen. The notation of differences do not have to be physical differences. Cicero cautioned a fellow Roman senator to avoid buying slaves from Britannia because they were “stupid and unmanageable.” And, this, before Christ. As long as there are “differences” – be they geographic, religious, or otherwise – man can label other men as “different” and, usually, “inferior.”

And, this sort of “racism” does not have its origins in Western civilization. On the contrary, the word “slave” comes from “Slav,” those unfortunate Eastern Europeans that were so consistently enslaved by everyone from the Atilla the Hun to the Ottoman Empire to Genghis Kahn that people in bondage were simply refered to as “slaves.” Historical racism is color blind. Witness the bloodshed of the Hutu against the Tutsi in Rwanda or the current “racism” ongoing in Darfur.

As long as there are human who perceive themselves “victims” – economically, educationally, athletically, or simply because they have a deficit in self-esteem – there will have to be someone to blame. Some “other” and, for the insecure and (possibly) unstable psyche, color is the most discernable “other.”

While we can strive every day that we draw breath to rid ourselves and our world or the evil of racial thoughts, I doubt we – speaking of mankind, as a whole – will ever extinguish it. Despite the political value of pointing our racism in American society, I personally believe we, as a country, are one of the least racist societies on the planet. Do we have work remaining to be done? Absolutely. Is racism the cause of every economic and educational disparity in our society? Absolutely not.

I believe it was Ghandi that said “You must be the change you wish to see in the world.” I would wish that we all strive to do that very hard work every day.

Blessings to you all,

Ron

Thank you for that book list, will need to look it up.
winslie

i like how we have the same reading list – i have to return to that book – i got distracted by something else and didn’t finish reading it.

i can’t remember where i left this reference – maybe on Field’s site but have you read Ian Haney-Lopez’ book – White By Law – the Legal Construction of Race?

He describes race as this: “…in other words, social meanings connect our faces to our souls. Race is neither an essence nor an illusion, but rather an ongoing, contradictory, self-reinforcing process subject to the macro forces of social and political struggle and the micro effects of daily decisions. . . [R]eferents of terms like Black, White, Asian, and Latino are social groups, not genetically distinct branches of humankind.”

and demonstrates the whole process of constructing the category of Whiteness as OTHER to the people collectively OTHERED (does that make sense as I said it? I mean – white people’s sole identity as a collectivity is based on NOT being the very categories they OTHERED (i.e. non-white)…(instead of vice versa as some people imagine non-white people presupposes white people when really people were designated non-white as a way of fashioning “whiteness”))…

anyway, he looks at the legal progression for constructing whiteness through naturalization and citizenship laws and the ways race and whiteness were contested in the courts…and then set a precedent for who was considered white…

anyway, i must have read your post on mental illness…i’ll look back at it now…

-Elizabeth

How many bombs do they need? How many military bases does the American ruling class need?

I mean, the Europeans encountered people who had no need to own land, control land, fence in land, control and subjugate women, etc.
I’ll check out your links. I did a post on racism as a mental illness a few months ago. The white folks uniformly couldn’t hear it, let alone see or accept it. That means there’s got to be something to it.

Mark bey: Frances that is not the way I understand the concept of race. I have no heard of different groups refered to as sub.

Also I 100% reject any notions of inferiority or superiority of any group of people in relation to another group.

Plus as the some of the other commentators seem to indicate if it wasnt skin color it would be something else. If you look at some of the charistics of sexism all over the globe you will find similar abuses to racism. Women are not only oppressed but also beaten only becasue they are women. The legal is different for them only because they are women.

I am under the impression that it is about race or skin its more so about mans inhumanity to man and since the game is about survival on one level or another. Since the game has always been about that whoever is weaker or can be taken advantage of the easiest will be the first taken advantage of.

“…insist on defining himself and his relation to white people…”

yes to this. definitely this is the goal, and so i understand the impetus behind challenging the inherent assumptions bound up in the words race and racism…but i think the problem is trickier than just referring to “skin-color”…

because of the very fact that race is NOT a real, biologically founded thing, it cannot be reduced to simply skin color…a million and one examples are plugging up my head so i’m actually coming up almost blank but think about white-skinned african-americans who do not pass or racist practices that never actually rely on “skin color” but on some attribution of characteristics or culture that are associated with a given “skin color” (nba dress code comes to mind)…while skin color is still a/the central component by which we define race, it’s much more murky and is inextricable from cultural elements and other characteristics that are tied up in white/dominant conceptions of “blackness” …

I just noticed there were more posts on FreeSlave and read them…and I very much agree with Davey J….I’m also trying to understand and explore more the concept or framework FrancisHolland put forth about the disease of color-arousal…

I guess I’m responding in part to this:

When FrancisHolland says:
“So, what police perceive visually and what arouses the negative behavioral response in them is, quite simply and uniquely, our “skin color.””

While skin color is a historical root, what arouses the negative behavioral response in plenty of other circumstances of racism isn’t specifically the skin color but the attribution being made to it, no? I’m just looking at this classification of “disease” and to understand it’s symptoms I believe there are plenty of people who genuinely do not believe they have negative feelings about black-LOOKING people…but this does not mean they don’t have deeply embedded/socialized/etc. associations between “blackness” and negative characteristics…and it is the “negative characteristic” that gets triggered (through code words like crime and poverty) and the “blackness” is thus indirectly invoked…

oh god excuse me for being so inarticulate…let me try one more time –

“When police perceive that a person’s skin is darker than white skin, be the victims Latino or Black, there often occurs within police officers’ brains a series of thoughts and feelings which are then manifested in behavior, like stopping us, searching us, beating us and/or arresting us.”

I guess I’m suggesting that we also have to take into account the reverse…the situations in which the “perceiver” responds to a behavior or other quality of a person, and responds to that, because of an embedded association with blackness, but not simply because they are perceiving a skin color difference….

or shit, maybe that was exactly what you were saying and everything i said above was irrelevant/redundant…if so excuse me!

i really like this:
“Once you acknowledge that ECA is a mental illness, you must begin to use the analogy of other mental illnesses to understand what societal approaches will advance and retard the treatment of the disease”

For a while now i’ve been saying whiteness and privilege operate as a mental illness, and people are delusional because of them…i was thinking about the concept of 12-stepping people to address racism…and recently found a woman wrote a 3-part article basically hitting that – here’s the first:

http://www.blackcommentator.com/222/222_beneath_the_spin_get_over_racism_1_secours.html

and looking at whiteness as an illness:
http://www.blackcommentator.com/223/223_beneath_the_spin_whiteness_2_secours.html

and you’re right about treatment and stigma…i’m going to have to think more about this…

-Elizabeth