Eighteen year old South African runner Caster Semenya bolted to the world’s attention when she shattered records on the track. At the African Junior Championships in Mauritius she posted the fastest 800-meter run of the year at the time with a 1:56:72. When she competed in her first senior championship at the world track and field championships in Berlin just a few days ago, she clocked another record for the year of 1:55.45 and finished two seconds ahead of the defending world champion.
The wide margin of victory against elite runners of the world added to the speculation that Ms. Semenya could be a male. Officials from the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF), track and field’s governing body for the world, will be conducting a gender testing procedure that includes an endocrinologist, a gynecologist, a psychologist, and both internal and external physical examinations. The IAAF director of communications, Nick Davies, says that the organization does not believe Ms. Semenya has been intentionally cheating but is the victim of a medical condition known as Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS). AIS is a condition in which a person who is genetically male but is unaffected by male sex hormones known as androgens. Some people with AIS will have a totally female body on the outside, but will lack ovaries and a uterus while others may demonstrate partial AIS and will develop more muscle mass and have more facial hair than usual.
To say that the rest of the track runners are praying for confirmation of the AIS gender malady in the test results is an understatement. Ms. Semenya literally blows away the competition with the ability to literally walk away from the rest of the pack at will. With respect to her opponents, Ms. Semenya does a very good impersonation of Jamaican sprinter and Olympic gold medalist Usain Bolt, who outruns his male opponents just as easily with his own record shredding performances. As a man Mr. Bolt is immune from accusations of gender confusion. No one is going to accuse him of running like a girl, not unless it’s the bionic woman.
And speaking of the bionic woman, if Ms. Semenya looked like Lindsey Wagner, who played the transistors enhanced Jaime Sommers, questions of her gender would not have been an issue. But because she does not fall into the typical standards of beauty of keen facial features and long wavy hair, it’s easy to dismiss her as nothing more than a freak of nature undeserving of her success. If she looked more like the Florence Griffith-Joyner and ran with a long flowing ponytail and sporting the latest in Cover Girl products or was a perky bundle of muscle like Dominique Dawes then we would simply call her the winner and stand in line to swoon all over her.
Instead, we hear rumors that she might be more man than woman and suddenly point to her anatomy and ask, what gives? Does she really have too much muscle mass to be a woman? Some of her competitors look just as muscular. Maybe they should have their gender checked as well. Does she really have more hair than other women? I know for a fact that nobody questioned Brooke Shields’ gender when she walked onto the scene with her bushy eyebrows. But that won’t stop these fleet footed kettles from calling Ms. Semenya black. Italian competitor Elisa Piccione said that these kinds of people should not be allowed to run with normal women. I guess by normal she doesn’t mean slower.
Instead of being celebrated as the latest great athlete, Ms. Semenya is going to be systematically taken apart and studied all the way down to her genetic level. Her twenty third chromosome will be checked for the proper pairing and she’ll be put under a variety of technologically advanced microscopes so some of us can examine her every defect. Some of the test that she’ll be subjected to will be arbitrary and based on somebody’s opinion of what it means to be male or female. Seriously, what can a psychologist contribute to the understanding of this runner’s gender? The only reason she’s going in for psychological testing is that she did her best to win a race.
If this woman is going through a battery of tests simply because she won a race then maybe it should become standard procedure for all women who win a race to have their gender checked and their psyche scrutinized for their every Freudian flaw. Why stop there? Let’s avoid embarrassing the winners and the rest of the runners altogether by checking their femininity when they sign up before they run. But to wait until women like Caster Semenya are in the middle of experiencing their highest high, after they have put their best effort forward with astonishing results, after they have played by all the rules, while they’re steep in the middle of overwhelming emotions, to single them out for further testing simply because they won and don’t fit our expectations of how a woman should appear and act is some serious loser like behavior.
I think it could be that she was born with a lot of male features and plus hormones have taken her to the point that she really now looks like a man but she still biologically a woman.
Umm… Having nuts (testes) = man.
I don’t know, BP. She may be a woman, but her look and more importantly, her performance suggest otherwise.
It goes a bit beyond wavy hair; Semenya looks and runs like a straight up dude. And from some casual reading, there have been cases in track over the last few years of men getting caught running women’s events.
There is even a case in tennis right now, where a suspected hermaphrodite is catching flack because she is known (how?!) to have once owned a johnson, in addition to a parking spot.
This will play out the way it plays out; either way, questions of gender, of what constitutes a female, male, etc, etc will be worth mulling over.
The girl looks like her mother. Same facial features, same tall physical build but with the daughter’s enhanced musculature from training. And if an exceptional track performance means something is peculiar then why isn’t Usain Bolt being pulled apart and measured to determine if he’s part horse or part cheetah. A woman with the most masculine features in the world is still a woman. The fact that other competitors are hermaphrodites is not a reason to suspect this girl. The only reason we are allowing her to be picked apart is because she doesn’t fit our idea of beautiful. And while we wait for this to play out, many of us will sit by and allow this girl’s life to be ruined in the process.
Peace
BP, I have to agree with you on this one. Ms. Semenya certainly does not conform to what we are conditioned into believing is a “beautiful” woman, certainly not a “beautiful” Black woman (by North American or Eurocentric standards) and particularly a “sexy” Black female athlete. Her hair is short, her skin tone is dark, her nose is broad and flat, her lips are thick, she isn’t busty, she is muscular and her voice is deep. Oh yeah… let’s not forget… she’s also African!
I have seen Serena Williams when she is at her fitest and she is quite muscular, one could even argue “masculine”. However, with her busty hourglass figure, high pitched voice, make up, stylish hair weaves, as well as “sexy” athletic attire, no one questions her femininity nor accomplishments. I have seen white female track and field athletes who look much more masculine than Ms. Semenya and there has been no controversy about their femininity.
Remember Richard Raskind, better known as “female” professional tennis player Renee Richards after his sex change operation? He was allowed to play professional tennis as a woman after the New York Supreme Court ruled in his favor, when the USTA had banned him from playing as a woman in the 1976 US Open. So what’s the real basis of the controversy now… other than Ms. Richards may have looked more like a woman after his operation than the “real” woman Ms. Semenya… and Richards was white (and American) of course.
And what’s with Ms. Semenya having to undergo a “psychological” assessment to determine if she is a woman!?!? What’s next if she passes that assessment!? Have her assessed by a dog or horse whisperer to confirm that she is indeed human!?!?!?
I’ll call it as I see it. This is just another example of Africans being dehumanized and their accomplishments being called into question, especially after kicking everyone’s azzz on the world stage: “There’s no way this success could be legitimate. They’re Africans for Christsake!!!!”
It’s racist. It’s ignorance.
That pic of bodybuilder Lenda Murray was like a straight slap of Aqua Velva…thanks, I needed that!!!
On this topic, I’m not getting into the notions of imperfect humanity as far as genetics are concerned. We’re not on StepfordWorld, so that arguement is toast. Semenya doesn’t fit the faux-standard of western beauty with the mane full of hair or caked-up cosmetics. Gawking at these “bambis” on the tele day in and day out gets old.
The simple fact is, African excellence can never be respected.
Let’s be honest folx, athletes who experience AIS or some other instance of gender confusion often times have an unfair advantage over their competitors. This is not the first time gender testing has been done in professional athletics and I for one, hope it won’t be the last. If I were competing against someone with Caster’s strikingly deep voice and lack of any identifiable female qualities, I’d request a gender test also.
Part of the reason Serena’s sex isn’t questioned is not because she wears “sexy’ outfits, but because she has other female qualities i.e. soft voice, breasts, etc. There are more than a few professional lesbian athletes who don’t wear weave or behave in a way that is considered traditionally female but they aren’t singled out for gender tests because they, like Serena, still have identifiable female qualities. The request that Caster take a gender test isn’t an assault on non-western beauty, it’s an attempt to be fair.
And in so far as psychological testing is concerned, it is important in understanding how the athlete identifies. Does Caster identify as female or male? How we identify can often be linked to our hormonal levels, genitalia, etc. And there are often times when a female expresses a more masculine attitude because she has, at some point, experienced severe psychological trauma. Gender can be extremely complex and making an accurate gender assessment can be just as difficult. The psychological tests help put the pieces of the puzzle together. So no, it’s not exactly “horse whispering”…..
But if you look for racism behind every nook and cranny, you’re sure to find it….
Yvette
Yvette,
You are putting the cart before the horse. It has not been determined if she has AIS or not. And the fact that she is so much faster than the other runners automatically puts them at a disadvantage. We don’t need any gender test to see this.
The only reason people are allowing this to be an issue is because she doesn’t fit the normal patterns of feminine beauty. When Jackie Joyner blew away the competition nobody questioned her gender. The same with Flo Jo. It is because we’re dealing with a rather homely woman that we have to look at her sideways and suspect that she’s got gender issues.
And a psychologist has to be brought in to determine which gender she identifies with. I think the fact that she’s running with women would be a good clue. But of course we have to stand back, wait, and allow the system to get conclusive proof. Why? She’s got a deep voice and other circumstantial factors. For all we know Ms. Semenya might be a lesbian or simply androgynous. As far as I know that is not a disqualification for competing with other women.
Lastly, if you don’t open your eyes to the racism standing right in front of you, getting ready to run you down like a Mack truck, you’ll never see it coming…
Peace
@ Yvette: Can you tell me where it has been verified that Ms. Semenya has AIS other than speculation by the media’s medical experts? Has the testing been completed? And what is the gender confusion??? As far as I can tell… although I must admit I am not a medical practitioner nor a psychologist (although sometimes I play one)… she is a woman.
You are correct, but not the way that you mean, when you state that: “The request that Caster take a gender test isn’t an assault on non-western beauty, it’s an attempt to be fair.”
“mirror, mirror on the wall. who’s the fairest of them all…”
“And in so far as psychological testing is concerned, it is important in understanding how the athlete identifies. Does Caster identify as female or male?” In an interview I saw with Ms. Semenya, she stated that she is a woman and therefore isn’t concerned about the testing. That’s proof enough for me.
It’s not neccessary to “look for racism behind every nook and cranny…” when it’s staring you right in the face. However, to coin a phrase: “there are none so blind as those who will not see…”
What happened to our sister from South Africa is the testimony of international double standard. How can the whole nation be duped by a single person-a teenager like Semenya? It does not cross my mind. This is zilch thinking.
I understand. Gender does add up when it comes to rules set by IAAF. But again, coming with half baked stuffs as story to tell the world is a nugatory as cheating.
If the issue was and still is to know who Semenya is, her mother told it all. She is girl she gave birth to. What and who else does IAAF want to hear?
Confidentiality is a human right in the so-called civilized countries. How come this does not apply to Semenya in the first place?
Were I semenya, being truly and naturally a girl, I’d sue IAAF for degrading, humiliating and changing me.
Importantly, we need to know the findings of IAAF. With all scientific development, saying IAAF is wary regarding Semenya’s sex is a broad light gimmick. Stop witch hunt and white washing. Tell us what is up out there.
Excellent article in theRoot: Is there a science to beauty?
It has not been verified that Semenya has AIS, which is why she’s been asked to take a gender test. As with most medical conditions, there are often symptoms of which there can be a variety of causes. The only way we’ll know for sure if Semenya has an advantage over her competitors is by reviewing the results of the gender test.
The fact that she is so much faster than her competitors could means she’s a superior athlete OR it could mean she has a superior advantage. The point of the matter is we don’t know and, if we want to be fair to the other runners, we need to know.
As I said before, there are many female athletes who don’t fit the feminine ideal of beauty and who haven’t been required to take a gender test. But when you lack absolutely any identifiable female qualities and you run circles around the competition, it’s only natural that people would be suspicious.
BP, the fact that she’s running with women isn’t sufficient evidence to indicate which gender she identifies with. Let’s not forget that competitive running is a professional sport and with this comes financial reward. She could identify as male but be running with women because that’s the only arena in which she stands a competitive chance.
And I’m sorry Asa, I’m just not as trusting as you. The fact that Semenya gives us her word that she’s a woman isn’t good enough for me. If she truly does have AIS (which is a real possibility), she may have a vagina but may still hormonally have many uniquely male advantages, i.e. muscle mass and strength.
In so far as race is concerned, many of the questions which have been raised about Semenya’s sex have been from her competitors, many of whom are black. They may be motivated by self interest, but not race. Wasn’t it Nietzsche who said “And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.”? BP and Asa I think you two have been gazing into the abyss of racism a little too long…
Yvette
Yvette,
I don’t think you’ve looked at aspects of racism enough. Go to any hospital and you’ll see a number of people who say things like, I never saw the car that ran me over! Or you’ll see a lot of people who took their health for granted. Why look for problems when someone feels healthy? If you go in for a regular checkup it’s only a matter of time before the doctor finds something. It is much better to stay in blissful ignorance, at least until the problems becomes so severe that they can no longer be ignored.
Again, I have to ask why is she being accused of AIS? She doesn’t have a medical condition. Being female and having masculine or androgynous features is not a medical problem. If she was suspected of being a man then why didn’t they do it when she first started track? I’m pretty sure this wasn’t her first race. Why did we have to wait until she becomes the premier runner of the world before we started asking questions? People wait until she wins everything and then ask if she’s some kind of manly derivative or not. Being fast is not the reason she is being tested. Being fast and not being caught up in preconceived notions of what makes a woman look like she should be a woman is the reason she’s being tested. And if she runs with women, says she’s a woman, has always ran with women before, then I’d say we’ve let this go on for so long why start asking questions now. Obviously, she feels she’s entitled to run with other women.
This whole supposition is ridiculous. Suddenly it has become necessary to figure out if this woman who has always run as a woman is indeed a woman. She’s much too fast to be female. Good thing Usain Bolt doesn’t suffer from such disdain. The way he runs from the competition I’m surprised people aren’t checking to see if he’s some kind of genetic link to a horse. It’s no coincidence that now is the time to humiliate this sister by accusing her of being something else.
Peace
What is a woman?
I would note that in the picture of Caster Semenya, there are two other African women runners well behind her who, while muscled, dark and African, appear to be “women.”
What is a woman?
Another question: how can a woman, without breasts or hips, with musculature that puts most men to shame and with a “5 o’clock shadow – NOT be a man?!
Ms. Semenya may simply be an androgynous female. A VERY androgynous female. But, her performance as well as her appearance have generated questions that beg resolving if for no other reason than, answering once and for all the questions.
I recall when Ben Johnson defeated Carl Lewis in the race that resulted in his being banned from track. Johnson looked like an alien chewing up track with the greatest of ease. Many questioned his performance AND appearance – and they were right.
Ms. Flo Jo herself was the subject of the rumor mill, though she was never caught with any drugs. Some noted the marked change in her physique, from the softer, more voluptuous early days, to a harder, mustachioed, some would say, more manly appearance of her golden year. And then her sudden retirement.
In tennis, Amelie Mauresmo was accused of being half a man by the number one ranked player in the world; but since she had breasts and other features that were “womanly”, she was not subject to testing, only suspicion – and, probably, envy.
I would agree that Semenya is probably getting MORE flack than a white woman for whatever that’s worth. However, she’d be getting flack no matter what color she is – based on performance and appearance.
And I don’t know if this is the case to raise the Black flag over.
Yes it is true that she’s getting flack based on nothing but performance and appearance. Just like people from the black community get flack based on nothing but performance and appearance. Because some black people lie, cheat, and steal, it is logical to assume that all black people lie, cheat, and steal. And if that’s nothing to raise the black flag over then what is?
Yes it probably makes sense, in a warped kind of way that’s reserved only for a few who fall outside the scope of the racially generic dominant community well defined by the white community, to test Ms. Semenya’s gender now that she’s the number one runner. But it certainly could have been handled much better instead of becoming this high profile circus. There is no discretion or sense of sensibility. And the way a lot of people talk, this sister is guilty before we know the results.
Peace
I am sorry, a female having a 5 o’clock shadow is NOT some proof positive that she is a man. There are a plethora of women who grow too much hair which is called hirsutism.
There is also a problem with men growing breasts called gynemycastia. Should these men now be subject to testing etc.? These disorders don’t have anything to do with being the opposite sex.
Look at Billy Jean King or Martina Navratilova, I never saw anyone asking to look at those two manly looking people’s genitalia. And yes, if this chick had long flowing hair and long fingernails people would not question her at all.
And for Yvette, even if she has AIS that would NOT preclude her from running with the women. AIS has many levels and if she is one that has totally feminine genitalia then doesn’t that make her a female? How can you start to discriminate on a genetic level.
This is just ridiculous to sit and try and justify any of this madness. There are too many women out there breaking records and not being subjected to this. I agree with BrotherP.
Thanks.
As BP states… this whole supposition is ridiculous and has become a high profile circus based on the performance and appearance of an African woman! The fact is, she didn’t break the women’s world record for the 800 meters… nor the men’s world record for that matter… although she did beat her nearest challenger by just over 2 seconds. I read yesterday that preliminary tests showed that she had 3 times the normal female level of testosterone, which is still within the allowable range for female athletes (on average men have 40-60 times the amount of testosterone than women). So why the controversy… other than she doesn’t fit within the acceptable boundaries of what a woman should look like… and her being an African only accentuates the notion that she cannot be authentic. So I will ask the same question as BP: “And if that’s nothing to raise the black flag over then what is?”
@ Yvette: It’s true that unlike you, I am more trusting than you are when it comes to acknowledging and accepting the accomplishments and achievements of Black/African people. I trust Ms. Semenya when she says that she is a woman. I trust her Mother, Grandmother, Aunt, friends, the members of her village and former school mates when they state that she is indeed a woman. Now it may be revealed in the future that she had in fact cheated by taking performance enhancing drugs which made her appear more masculine, but that is a separate issue.
It’s also true that unlike you, I am less trusting of the eurocentric based scientific community. This is the same community that not too long ago used scientific methods, such as measuring penis size and skull circumference to conclude that African/Black people were not just inferior to White people, but were in fact sub-human… just above a monkey on their “scientific” evolutionary scale. Recently, Dr. James Watson, an eminent biologist, geneticist, and 1962 Nobel laureate in science, made some controversial statements regarding the inferiority of those of African descent. So no, I am not as trusting as you in their scientific methods to define the gender of Ms. Semenya, an African woman.
Also I would be interested to know the source of the last part your statement: “In so far as race is concerned, many of the questions which have been raised about Semenya’s sex have been from her competitors, many of whom are black.“ I have read no news or media reports… anywhere… where any “Black” competitors have questioned Ms. Semenya’s gender. The only competitors who have questioned her gender, which I have read and found after doing a search, have been Mariya Savinova of Russia and Elisa Cusma of Italy, the fifth and sixth place finishers respectively in the recent World Championships, both of whom are white. So pray tell… who are these Black competitors that you are refering to?
You may be right that I have been gazing into the “abyss of racism” for a little too long… however it’s so that I don’t fall in and become brainwashed into internalizing, accepting, believing and intellectualizing on the subtle (and not so subtle) idea that people of African descent are not to be trusted, their accomplishments are to be suspected, and their humanity, including gender, are to be questioned.
Asa and BP, you both continue to posit the theory that Semenya is being singled out for a gender test because she is an extraordinary African athlete. Your theory seems to rest on the idea that the larger white, athletic community, just can’t accept the accomplishments of this African woman because she does not fit the traditional ideal of femininity.
But what you either forget or choose not to address is the fact that the first person to fail a gender test was Polish runner, Ewa Kłobukowska. Three years ago Indian runner Santhi Soundarajan had to hand back her 800m silver medal after failing a gender test. Neither of these women were African. From a historical perspective, there is absolutely no basis for your assumption that Semenya is being singled out by the IAAF because she is African.
@ Asa, No I don’t believe Africans or people of color are more or less predisposed to tell the truth than are people of European descent. Actually, Semenya’s family has much more incentive to intentionally mislead the international press regarding her sex than the IAAF. It could also be the case that Semanya has a vagina but has other genetic or hormonal irregularities which could still bar her from competing with other women. If this were the case, there would be no way for her family to know. And I am not failing to acknowledge Semenya’s accomplishments by accepting the responsibility of the IAAF to be fair to all their athletes. The two ideals aren’t mutually exclusive.
No, I don’t have a quote from a black athlete regarding Semenya’s gender. I do know that since her win, rumors have been circulating that Semenya may not be 100% female. But I’m sure it’s your position that the rumors were all part of the white power conspiracy to slander Semenya. I, on the other hand, am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that black runners were among those raising questions about Semenya’s sex. Why? Because I’m a black woman and if I were a competitive runner and glanced to the block beside me and saw Semanya, I’d be among the first to question her gender. I’m sure you would say I’m the exception and not the rule. But wasn’t it you, Asa, who said the exception proves the rule? .
@BP, Having AIS is not necessarily a medical problem but it can give you a measurable athletic advantage. By the way, I’m also a lesbian who doesn’t identify as feminine so please don’t feed me the hypothesis that she’s not being treated fairly because she’s not feminine . I live in a world where women push the limits of gender and sexuality all day, every day.
Read the story below and bear in mind that this is a “White Woman” who has never won anything close to a major tennis prize. Is this racism???:
German tennis player Sarah Gronert embroiled in gender controversy
BY Lauren Johnston
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Friday, March 20th 2009, 10:44 AM
Take our Poll
Tennis gender controversy
Should Gronert be allowed to play the women’s tour?
Yes – She is a woman.
No, she has an unfair advantage
A beautiful young German tennis player is stuck amid a gender scandal that could stunt her promising career: the sporting world can’t decide if she is a man or a woman.
Sarah Gronert, 22, was born with both male and female genitalia but later had surgery to remove the male organs and is now legally certified as a woman.
But even with the surgery, the tennis world is locked in a debate over whether she belongs on the women’s professional circuit.
The coach of one player who was bested by Gronert says no way.
“There is no girl who can hit serves like that, not even Venus Williams,” said Schlomo Tzoref, who coaches player Julia Glushko. Glushko recently lost to Gronert in a tournament in Israel.
“When I heard her story, I was in shock. I don’t know if it’s fair that she can compete or not. She does have an advantage, but if this is what the WTA have decided, they probably know best. If she begins to play continuously, within six months she will be within the top 50,” he said.
Gronert nearly quit the sport at age 19 after being ridiculed for her physical state, but instead underwent the surgery, according to the sports Web site Fanhouse.
She is ranked No. 619 in the world and has played in nine tournaments in the past three years and won two of them.
There is growing unrest among those in the sport who feel her male attributes may have given her an edge over other female players.
“This is not a woman, it’s a man. She does not have the power of a woman and no woman has such a technique,” Tzoref said.
“No, I don’t have a quote from a black athlete regarding Semenya’s gender. I do know that since her win, rumors have been circulating that Semenya may not be 100% female.”
Yvette… then you have no factual basis for your statement other than rumours you have heard or read somewhere.
“But I’m sure it’s your position that the rumors were all part of the white power conspiracy to slander Semenya.”
Yvette… never assume that you know what my position would be on anything. You may be surprised or disappointed.
“I’m sure you would say I’m the exception and not the rule. But wasn’t it you, Asa, who said the exception proves the rule?”
Yvette… the only rule it would prove is that you’re a sore loser… lol!
@Freeslave: Interesting article and subsequent post. If and when Ms. Semenya fails whatever gender tests she is subjected to and her medal has been stripped, then I’ll change my position that the whole affair is motivated by racism. Until then it’s just an interesting article and post and doesn’t prove that Ms. Semenya is anything other than what she claims to be… a woman.
Asa, I’m not offering any of this information as “proof.” This is not a court of law after all. The only proof in this matter will be rendered, hopefully, from the testing.
The point I’m trying to make is that it ain’t necessarily racism that’s involved in this issue. And if there is racism at play, how do you quantify it? How do you determine how much of this is racism and how much is legit, when: 1) the athlete in question has hyper-masculine appearance; 2) the athlete in question has more bass in her voice than Melvin Franklin of the Temptations and; 3) destroys the field without any strain, making world class runners look like children.
(I’m sitting here listening to her being interviewed on Youtube and she TOTALLY sounds like a dude…whatever sounding like a dude means, right?!)
Now, one can argue that she should never have been required to submit to testing, however, the articles I provided indicate that there is precedent for women of questionable gender being asked to take verification exams and/or testing.
Most of these women, at least the ones I found, were white. I think that Yvette makes a point in suggesting that “going from zero-to-racism” whenever there is a colored person in the mix in some issue or other, lends itself to seeing it and/or overstating its importance wherever it shows up.
For me, its important NOT to make that leap until more info and more perspective/distance from the issue is possible. But that’s just me, homes!
In the “I just report the news” category:
“New tempests of controversy swirled Tuesday around Caster Semenya, the 18-year-old South African running sensation whose record-breaking performances have prompted a “gender verification” test, and whose coach is Ekkart Arbeit, disgraced years ago for his lead role in the systematic doping programs of East German sports in the 1970s and ’80s.
“This is an outrage that federations and clubs and national governing bodies allow these guys to be employed as coaches,” said physician Steven Ungerleider, author of “Faust’s Gold: Inside the East German Doping Machine,” and a consultant to the U.S. Olympic Committee.
Ungerleider said that officials within the sport of track and field should be held accountable for Arbeit’s having been permitted to work with the South African team.
Arbeit and other coaches were prosecuted in the ’90s for giving heavy regimens of anabolic steroids to athletes he coached in East Germany’s state-sponsored sports apparatus during the Cold War. Unlike many other coaches and trainers, Arbeit confessed to his role in the program. One of Arbeit’s athletes, Heidi Krieger, accused Arbeit of giving her so many drugs that she was forced to become a man, undergoing sex-change operations and adopting a male identity as Andreas Krieger.
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2009/08/25/2009-08-25_caster_semeny.html#ixzz0PceCOqSn
“Yvette… then you have no basis for your statement other than rumours you have heard or read somewhere. ”
One can always use his or her experience as a basis for belief or non belief. Aren’t you using the collective black experience as it relates to the white “scientific” community to support your argument? But I can’t use my experiences as an African American woman to support my position? My experience has shaped my perception and vice versa. Wasn’t it you, Asa, who asserted in an earlier post that “your perception is your reality” ?
Having said that, perception of what the other African and black female competitors may or may not feel is based on more than rumors, it’’s based on my perception and therefore, has value. It is awful hard to verify rumors because they originate with whispers and stares…..but my view stands that the white women weren’t the only ones dishing the goods on Semenya. How many of them have you seen publicly supporting her?
“Yvette… never assume that you know what my position would be on anything. You may be surprised or disappointed.”
For me to be disappointed in your position implies I have some level of expectation from you, of which I have none. I am merely basing my statement on your previous “Semenya” blog posts. And I very seriously doubt that there’s anything you could say or do to surprise me at this point
@thefreeslave, thanks for posting the article. I believe it supports my position that this whole affair may not be motivated by race.
Yvette
To say that there is a precedence to justify the careful examination of Ms. Semenya’s gender status is like saying that because white people get speeding tickets there may be a justification for racial profiling. A lot of people say that the fact that so many black people are caught with illegal substances justifies the focus on only black people. It’s a rather circular argument.
If the sister is proven to be so different from other women to the point that she’s more man than woman, I would continue to ask, based on whose standards? This country has a history of allowing white people to find black defendants guilty based on nothing but the fact that they were black.
Although her run was pretty phenomenal based on the performance of the other runners, it was not the all time record breaking performance we are led to believe it to be. Other women have run faster. The problem isn’t that Ms. Semenya is unusually fast. The problem could be that the other runners are simply too average to win.
Peace
If other women have come under scrutiny in like manner, tell me how this is different? As I shared, you’ve got a white German who is under similar scrutiny who has won two satellite tournaments on the tennis circuit. And you have had other women, also as noted, who have been caught over the years doing the gender-shuffle.
I mean, finding a racial/racism explanation for this – “aha, its racism! That’s why they are doing that to her!!!” – or, trying to isolate race from all the other possible reasons and raising that to paramount status is quite a stretch…in light of history…in light of cheating…in light of doping in track and field…
One of Semenya’s coach’s “charges” claimed that he gave her so many drugs, she didn’t know if she was man or woman. She eventually had a sex change operation…And she’s a white woman.
I would submit that that is A LOT of drugs…and a poor choice for a coach, especially if you can anticipate that you’re gonna get flack for looking super manly.
Her coach was an idiot who doped another player in the past, isn’t grounds enough for gender testing. She has already been scrutinized for doping and is within the female limits for testosterone.
I just totally agree that just because the other runners were seriously lacking doesn’t make this chick a dude. She didn’t come close to breaking any records.
And by the standards that people are setting for her that she ran so fast and isn’t the most feminine of girls she must be a dude. Then the other ladies who are holding the records must be dudes as well.
I am just thinking that if a person is intersexed that does not mean they are the opposite sex. Yes she may build muscle mass easily but that doesn’t mean that other women can’t build just as much.
We all know that mesomorph body types are prone to muscle building and endomorph body types that are prone to fat collecting. Doesn’t that give the mesomorph a marked advantage in anything related to sports? And if so, should we now ban them from competing as well.
The gun is being jumped on this one. I don’t think it is just the fact that she looks masculine. The problem is that people are calling her ape, and talking about a lot of ugly things while referring to her. And yes ape calling and the things that are being said are racist.
I don’t need to wait for proof to know that. We need to wait until the facts are in before continuing to insult this woman. I have never seen a 5′oclock shadow on her nor have I seen any bulges in the wrong places as in some of the people mentioned by the freeslave.
Being AIS positive will give her a slight advantage over SOME of the women NOT ALL of them. So lets just stop acting as if this is a done deal. And even if she is AIS then it is entirely possible that she didn’t even know and there was no fraud intended.
Thanks.
“One can always use his or her experience as a basis for belief or non belief”
@ Yvette…true but your experience as an African American woman wasn’t the basis of your original statement. You claimed that other “Black” competitors questioned her gender… which you could not support with any credible sources when asked. You then claimed that it was based on rumours and now you are taking the position that it’s based on your experience as an African American woman. If your “perception is your reality” then you need glasses. nuff said.
@thefreeslave: I had read the articles about Ms. Semenya’s East German coach and his connection to doping, as well as the report that at the July 2008 World Junior Championships in Poland, she had finished seventh out of nine runners in a first-round heat with a time of 2:11.98. (Interestingly, there was no controversy nor request for gender testing then). Now a year later, she is clocking 1:55.45, which may be cause for closer scrutiny in regards to doping, but as Sentinel stated, it isn’t grounds for gender testing. That is why I had stated earlier that “it may be revealed in the future that she had in fact cheated by taking performance enhancing drugs which made her appear more masculine”, but again that is a separate issue.
Sentinel,
I don’t know what the criteria or grounds for launching this kind of investigation is, but it seems to me that there are grounds to “test”, not convict, or judge before the evidence is in.
Now, we’re having a conversation and I have only been telling you what I SEE. I don’t KNOW the facts. The fact may be that she is all woman, is not using drugs and is a simply a stud athlete. If that is the case, I will have no problem admitting that my suspicions were incorrect.
But I and others methinks have a right to have suspicions some observable factors. You don’t think so; we disagree. You and others want to paint it as an outrage that people are even questioning Semenya’s victory. People should have said something before/why didn’t people say anything when she was losing, etc, etc?
First of all, evidently people had said things previously, but since she wasn’t standing in their way at the time, nobody cared. Now, a lot of people care because she did WIN a title, coming from nowhere, improving her time in the 800 dramatically, some might say, suspiciously.
Is this about race, are they just picking on her cuz she’s an African? Someone mentioned Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova as examples of white women who were never asked to be tested. Well…nobody ever suspected that they were men.
Martina was practically obese when she came on tour and remade herself with a drastic change in her diet and training regimen. Billie Jean definitely played like a man; but there was no question that she was a woman.
This is NOT the first time an athlete has been accused of faking gender, and based on some pretty understandable issues – the look, the very rapid improvement in performance, the suspect coach – questions need to be asked and answered.
I mean, do you think if Caster was white and all things were the same, that there’d be no questions asked and no test demanded???
One last thing: I thought it was very telling on the replay of her race, that it did not appear that ONE competitor came over to congratulate her. Not one. I could be wrong, but I didn’t see it. And those are women who have a bird’s eye view of the whole affair. Rather telling.
@ Asa, my assertion that there were rumors that Semenya was not 100% female was based on printed reports in gossip columns and my interpretation of said rumors. It was reported that some of her competitors had begun to question her gender but you’re right, the race of the competitors who were spreading these rumors was not listed. You pointed to two white competitors who’ve been bold enough to make public statements questioning her gender. It is therefore, your assumption, that these rumors originated solely from Semenya’s white competitors (since there is no “credible” evidence revealing the sources of the chatter surrounding Semenya’s gender). MY experience suggests that your assumption is naive at best. This is where my experience and the rumors surrounding Semenya intersect. I’ve never changed my position, only clarified it. And since you’re the one who sees race under every rock and behind every doorway, seems to me you’re the one in need of glasses.
“I just totally agree that just because the other runners were seriously lacking doesn’t make this chick a dude.”
@theblacksentinal
Neither thefreeslave nor I have ever asserted that the fact that Semenya is being singled out solely because the other runners were “lacking”. However, her lack of any identifiable female qualities, coupled with her improvement does raise questions.
@brotherpeacekeeper
Your comparison of Semenya’s gender testing to driving while black is the biggest logical fallacy I’ve heard thus far. People who are arrested for “driving while black” are usually selected based on race and only after this initial selection does the cop search for a reason to justify the stop or arrest. In Semenya’s case, there are ample indicators that her gender may be in question, i.e. deep voice, mannerism, no breasts, broad shoulders etc. None of these things in and of themselves prove anything, which is why the IAAF is testing….
“It is therefore, your assumption, that these rumors originated solely from Semenya’s white competitors (since there is no “credible” evidence revealing the sources of the chatter surrounding Semenya’s gender).”
@ Yvette: Once again you’re trying to tell me what my “assumptions” are. I never asserted any “assumptions” about the origins of rumours about Ms. Semenya’s gender, from anyone, whether her Black or White competitors. The fact is you were the one who claimed your information was based on rumours. I clearly stated that I had read the quotes from the two white competitors in documented news reports. Unlike your experience, my “naive” experience has taught me never to base my arguments on rumours, then there is no need to continually change… ooops, I mean “clarify” my position, when I am asked to provide proof. In this way, there isn’t the perception that I’m being disingenuous and dishonest by making “stuff” up to strengthen my argument. This is a discussion based on our opinions, not a competition to be “right”. There is no need to cheat in this arena.
By the way, I find it very interesting that although you state this controversy isn’t based on racism, you were quick to try to prove… ooops again… I mean “clarify” your point, based on “rumours” you supposedly heard about other “Black” competitors questioning Ms. Semenya’s gender… and then on your experiences as an “African American” woman… hmmm… but then again, maybe I’m just being “naive”.
Yvette,
Considering how you fail to recognize anything that might be considered racist out of fear of staring into any abyss, I’m not surprised you see big logical fallacies in a comparison between two types of selective testing, one being the choice to selectively test Ms. Semenya based on little more than appearances being compared to black drivers being pulled over based on their appearance. Not everyone who is pulled over based on prejudices will be arrested. Pulling over black people for insignificant traffic infractions that are usually ignored when done by other drivers gives the police officer an opportunity to check further and make sure everything is on the up and up.
If having a flat chest and broad shoulders, a deep voice and mannerisms is justification for gender testing, then many of the women running in Ms. Semenya’s wake need to be checked as well. Look at the pictures and point to a woman that looks like she needs anything more than a training bra. But are they getting the same attention? Are they being investigated at all? If the IAAF is so concerned about women being and acting more like women, then let’s check all women who have flat chests and muscles. Let’s not pretend that this is some innocuous check because Ms. Semenya is some extraordinary exception. The record shows that other women have run faster. Ms. Semenya has already been tested for gender in other track events. Why is this sister being so closely examined now? The answer is her exceptionally deep voice and mannerisms, whatever that means. If that’s the case half the women on the track have flat chests and are broad shouldered with mannerisms and deep voices. A lot of women in the WNBA need to be tested. A lot of women in just about every sport fall into this category.
But of course every woman can’t go through such gender testing. The IAAF doesn’t have the resources to give everyone the same close and careful examination. It will be reserved for exceptional cases. Just like the police officer who can’t pull over every driver, just the ones that need closer inspection based on his/her keen observations, like the color of the driver’s skin. But you wouldn’t recognize that because that would require you to look into some abyss.
Peace
@brotherpeacekeeper
@brotherpeacekeeper
“considering how you fail to recognize anything that might be racist”
There is absolutely no evidence, on this post or any other, for you to paint me with such a broad brush. And to be sure, your hyperbolic language does not strengthen your argument.
“…one being the choice to selectively test Ms. Semenya based on little more than appearances”
You’re exactly right. Semenya is being tested based largely on her appearance. But not because of her appearance as an African woman, but as a woman who bears a striking resemblance to a man. Appearance is usually one of the primary indicators of gender is it not? As with most of the previous competitors who were gender tested by the IAAF, questions were raised at least partly because of their appearance. And again…..these women weren’t African…..
“Look at the pictures and point to a woman that looks like she needs anything more than a training bra”
Regardless of cup size, Semenya Is still the only runner on that track who, upon first and second glance, appears to be a man. The gender of the other runners is not even remotely in question. If you look and listen to them, they all have some identifiably female qualities.
With regard to your “driving while black” comparison; it is wrong for police officers to stop black people based on race because being black in and of itself does not predispose one to criminal activity, nor does it indicate criminal activity has occurred. Lacking all female qualities, on the other hand, can and often does point to gender issues and/or doping. So again, your “driving while black” comparison is flawed..
For what it’s worth, I hope Semenya passes her gender test because if she doesn’t, it will be an embarrassment for herself, her coach, and the community who defended her. But I’m not going to jump to her defense solely because of her race. If she passes the gender test, she can continue her career and run proudly without any cloud of suspicion.
Yvette,
Considering the fact that it appears that you refuse to examine this case for the potential of racism that is at play here then I do believe the statement is fair. While it is true that I believe that racism is playing a significant part in the examination of Ms. Semenya, I did not mention racism before you decided to accuse me of spending too much time staring into the abyss of racism, implying that I perceive racism where none exist. You fail to see racism as a factor here even though you say Ms. Semenya’s appearance is cause for more careful examination. It is your opinion that Ms. Semenya is manly. But when we let our opinions guide our choice as to who needs to be searched or who needs to undergo further gender examination under the most powerful of microscopes, then we have the propensity to allow our prejudices to guide our behaviors. Ms. Semenya might look like a man to you and that’s the only proof you need to subject her to further scientific testing. If that’s your reasoning then you truly do not understand the nature of racism and/or prejudice and therefore would not recognize it while it is slapping people in the face.
Peace
BP: There is a middle ground between “Zero-to-Racism in 60 seconds” and no racism at all. I think what I’m hearing too much of is the immediate assignment of this issue to the “racism” pile, all other issues, contradictions, evidence be damned.
I think that that kind of knee jerk response is unhealthy and leads, often, to inaccurate analysis. Making every issue a “black and white issue” while denying that gray exists is a part of the racism/white supremacy dynamic. As long as we can only see either/or, we will never be sophisticated enough to see nuance, like suffering, allies, etc. We pigeonhole ourselves, mentally, and thus can’t think our way out of our condition. And that’s just how the real racists want it.
There are a number of issues to untangle in this and many other issues. We need to develop the ability to reserve judgment, WHILE simultaneously being able to speculate and postulate…and allow others to do the same.
thefreeslave,
Simply because there is a middle ground doesn’t mean that there are no extremes. And knee jerk reactions appear to be the natural human condition. It is hardly limited to issues of racism and discrimination. I’m beginning to understand that it applies to issues of gender as well.
I have heard no evidence to be damned, only people’s opinion on what or when a woman’s gender needs to be called into question. This all appears to be an exercise in the assassination of a single woman’s character and gender. When exactly did quality of voice become part of the standard of what identifies a woman? When did the size of a woman’s teats dictate the level of femininity? About what level of sound frequency is the measure that indicates someone’s gender as female or male? I’m curious to know what quality is it that makes Ms. Semenya more likely to be more male than female that does not apply to the other runners.
If we are going to say that this sister deserves extra examination then somebody please come up with a satisfactory answer as to why. She ran so much faster than the other women. But she didn’t break any track records. She simply ran so much faster than the other slow poking contestants. We know for a fact that at least one other certified female has run faster. So what gives? Some people are under the impression that she looks and acts like a man so that makes her manly so that means we need to question her gender. But that’s just straight up bullshit. The race is called the women’s 800 meter race, not the women with long hair, boobs, and female mannerisms 800 meter race.
Just like there is a middle ground for racism there is a middle ground for gender definitions as well. Caving into people’s knee jerk reaction that a woman cannot appear too manly, simply saying that she has to have a pleasantly high voice and/or hair long enough to run fingers through and/or other such stereotypically feminine paraphernalia does nothing to add clarity to this subject.
I for one think we should be able to discuss this issue openly without the need to disregard each other’s perspective with such contempt. However, the invitation to diverging opinions should not be limited just to the people who participate in this forum but to the brothers and sisters throughout the black community as well. The Afrospear was intended to be a discussion place for the people of African descent. With respect to that intent, I would like to think that we would extend that consideration to all people of African descent.
Brothers and sisters out doing their thing, being the best that they can be, representing the black community deserve the support of the black community. Instead of proudly standing by a sister competing at the top of her game, some of us want to keep her at arm’s length until she receives the approval of same agency that is well represented by the racially generic community predominantly controlled by white people. Instead of us embracing this young girl, too many of us are ready to jump on the she’s too manly to be female bandwagon. And we forget that there is a middle ground.
In fact, while many people of African descent are happy to remain oblivious to the happenings in this whole sordid ordeal, way too many of us are ready to jump on the wrong side of anything that resembles middle ground. We feel we have to protect the sanctity of femininity by challenging the authenticity of any woman that falls outside the middle ground of femaleness. Many of us are quick to wash our hands of this daughter of South Africa. Too many of us will wait until she receives an official stamp of approval.
I am willing to stick by this young lady through this ordeal. While others look at her and see nothing but her resemblance to a man, I look at her and see a young black woman who deserves to be praised. I am willing to give her the benefit of a doubt. And if the results from these official tests come back and the verdict is that she is more man than woman, I will remember that many aspects of these tests are very arbitrary with little solid proof of gender other than somebody’s opinion. If there’s a penis between this person’s legs then I might have to reconsider and admit that I have been duped. But until then, I will accept her and her family’s contention that she was raised as a girl and that she is a young female.
Granted she is an unusual female. She might be masculine, she might be androgynous, she might be a lesbian, she might be a female transvestite who likes to wear men’s clothing, she might be butch, she might be straight as an arrow and just not fit the classic definition of what constitutes a female. But what ever she considers herself, I will support this young black sister through all of this.
Peace
@brotherpeacemaker: Damn! Excellent commentary!
“In fact, while many people of African descent are happy to remain oblivious to the happenings in this whole sordid ordeal, way too many of us are ready to jump on the wrong side of anything that resembles middle ground.”
Unfortunately this statement is too true!
“I am willing to stick by this young lady through this ordeal. While others look at her and see nothing but her resemblance to a man, I look at her and see a young black woman who deserves to be praised. I am willing to give her the benefit of a doubt. And if the results from these official tests come back and the verdict is that she is more man than woman, I will remember that many aspects of these tests are very arbitrary with little solid proof of gender other than somebody’s opinion. If there’s a penis between this person’s legs then I might have to reconsider and admit that I have been duped. But until then, I will accept her and her family’s contention that she was raised as a girl and that she is a young female.”
My exact sentiments also. The more I read on this whole affair, the more I am convinced that racism, whether overt or subconscious, is at the heart of this controversy. Until it is proven otherwise, this African sister has my support through all of this!
@BP
“Simply because there is a middle ground doesn’t mean that there are no extremes.”
No one on this post that I am aware of has ever asserted a belief that there are no extremes. I have always accepted the possibility that Semenya is a woman. But I also accept the possibility that she is a man, or she has a medical condition which could be the cause of her masculine physique. You’re over-exaggerating the positions taken by myself and thefreeslave. Could suspicion of Semnya’s gender be racially motivated? Yes, but, historically, the athletes selected for gender tests have not been of African descent. So, again, I see no evidence indicating that this is anything more than a sincere effort by the IAAF to be fair to its athletes.
“I am willing to stick by this young lady through this ordeal. While others look at her and see nothing but her resemblance to a man”
I am not willing to stand by anyone unless I am absolutely 100% convinced of the rightness or wrongness of his or her claim. If the gender test reveals that Semanya has both male and female genitalia, or has AIS, or has chromosomal abnormalities, will you still stand by her? Even if those abnormalities give her an unfair advantage? And is that fair to her competitors, many of whom are of African descent?
“When exactly did quality of voice become part of the standard of what identifies a woman? When did the size of a woman’s teats dictate the level of femininity?”
When performance enhancing drugs and/or hormonal, chromosomal , and gender irregularities were linked to shrinkage of female “teats”, increase of muscle mass, deepening of voice, etc is when the standard of what identifies a woman as a woman began to change.
“The race is called the women’s 800 meter race, not the women with long hair, boobs, and female mannerisms 800 meter race.”
You yourself pointed out in an earlier post that all of the women in the 800 meter race would only fit into a training bra. So let’s leave behind the premise that she’s being picked on because she doesn’t have 3 inch nails or “DD” cups.
“I for one think we should be able to discuss this issue openly without the need to disregard each other’s perspective with such contempt”
Disagreeing with you and showing contempt for you, or Semenya, are two very different things. When did I, or thefreeslave, voice contempt at your belief or your position?
“Brothers and sisters out doing their thing, being the best that they can be, representing the black community deserve the support of the black community.”
You’re exactly right! There are so many brothers and sisters in the IAAF who are dominating their sport and haven’t been selected for gender testing or marginalization of any kind.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one BP…..
Yvette,
You are too caught up in semantics.
And in that same vein of thought, no one on this post that I am aware of has ever asserted a belief that you or thefreeslave said that there were no extremes. Your contention that you are willing to accept the fact that Ms. Semenya might be a woman reeks of someone trying to hedge their bets. You reasoning sounds a lot like someone who thinks that there is a possibility that young blacks are criminals therefore it is okay to hold them on grounds of suspicion.
Please note, I did not say that you think young blacks might be criminals and therefore it’s okay to hold them on grounds of suspicion. I merely made an analogy.
The fact that history is full of examples of white people being suspected of cheating with respect to gender doesn’t mean squat. For example, history is full of white people who were hanged for crimes. That does little to dissuade the argument that racism was the motivation for black people being hanged. To borrow your line of reasoning, no one on this post ever said white people have never been accused of cheating with respect to gender.
Obviously! But that’s you and other people who want to keep open the possibility that this woman as some kind of exception of nature. It would be a logical position had there been anything to support the contention. However, people pointing to Ms. Semenya and saying that her voice is too deep and she runs too fast are not reasons enough to support the idea that she is not female. You might not feel comfortable supporting someone until you get your bona fide certification of authenticity. I don’t have a problem believing this young lady is a woman, has been raised as a woman, until I get bona fide certification that she is not.
If that is your contention then why aren’t the other flat chest women with considerable muscle mass that are on the track running with Ms. Semenya are not being tested because they easily fit into those categories as well. Why are you willing to single out Ms. Semenya and not apply these standards to the other women on the track who appear to have the same possibilities?
I have no clue where you’re going with this comment. Yes it is true that I said that all the women in this race would only fit into a training bra. So again, I have to ask, why Ms. Semenya is being singled out?
I think it was when you wrote, ”But if you look for racism behind every nook and cranny, you’re sure to find it….”, and then followed up with ”BP and Asa I think you two have been gazing into the abyss of racism a little too long…” And there appears to be plenty of contempt for Ms. Semenya. The idea that her character and gender are called into question under some of the most blatant double standards is contemptible.
And because house negroes were happy to eat at their master’s leftovers who can accuse anyone on the plantation of being unfair to the descendants of Africa?
Peace
I’m not going to address any of the issues you’ve outlined simply because they’ve all been addressed in previous posts. The only issue I’m willing to address is your accusation that I voiced contempt at your belief. You state the following:
“I think it was when you wrote, ”But if you look for racism behind every nook and cranny, you’re sure to find it….”, and then followed up with ”BP and Asa I think you two have been gazing into the abyss of racism a little too long…” And there appears to be plenty of contempt for Ms. Semenya. The idea that her character and gender are called into question under some of the most blatant double standards is contemptible.”
That’s not contempt BP, it’s sarcasm at worst. And if you look back at Asa’s statements, you’ll see a similar tone. Wasn’t it Asa who said to me:
“If your “perception is your reality” then you need glasses. nuff said.”
But I’m sure you would never criticize him because he shares your position. And I understand that we’re having a heated debate, so I don’t take it personally. I give as good as I get. I’ve disagreed with Asa before and he’s disagreed with me, but I don’t internalize it, nor do I accuse him of expressing “contempt”. Tomorrow this debate will be over and we’ll be on to something else…..
Contempt is a very strong word BP, it implies “vileness” and “worthlessness” and I’ve never regarded your position on this post as any of those things. You’ve accused me of something of which I’m not guilty. We can agree to disagree regarding Semenya, but to say that I, or anyone else, expressed contempt at any point in our conversation is simply untrue….
It seems that some people think that its an outrage that Semenya’s victory is even questioned; that the ONLY reason that she has been asked to submit to gender testing is out and out racism; that it is her strong African features that are being attacked by this ruling, nothing more.
Racism is a dynamic that exists, globally, all of us can agree on that. Racism exists in sports, racism exists in track, racism exists in the brain-trust that made the decision to test Semenya.
Racism also exists in us. Now, I don’t deny that racism exists, or that it could be/is a factor in the decision to “test/examine” Semenya. But there are other factors and they are clearly evident.
Someone noted that Semenya didn’t set any records, therefore, how can we suspect anything. She had control over how fast she ran; the fact that she set no record is meaningless. She ran as relaxed a race as you will ever see, with no observable strain. Could she not have run the race to win, rather than obliterate the field, in order to throw off the scent?
The fact that the woman looks like a man facially and bodily, that her voice is indistinguishable from a man’s, that her time in the 800 improved dramatically over the last six month (people don’t suddenly shave 10 seconds off of their race times), that her coach is a known drug cheat, that many of her traits are those of a man and/or doper…
I don’t see how one can fail to note the significance of these issues and just boil it down to race. And let’s be clear: to test her is not to strip her outright. To test is a fact finding mission; to strip her would be an outright assault.
Since white athletes have been the predominant focus of such investigations, I don’t get the fervor, the need to convict the investigators of racism.
Though racism exists, there are other Isms. Though the issue of gender has been raised, it is dismissed by its absence from the conversation. It could be claimed that this issue is more about gender than race; but those who carry the black flag run racism up the flag pole to the exclusion of everything else. That is your right.
Yvette,
If you have issues with what asabagna said then you should take them up with asabagna. I do believe I said that we should be able to discuss this issue openly without the need to disregard each other’s perspective with such contempt. I never said who was guilty or who wasn’t. I am not exempt from my own charge. To what degree we view contempt as disregard and vice-versa will remain as individual as any other opinions. You may see it as a strong word. That’s your opinion. Obviously, I see things differently. You think you are guiltless. That’s another one of your opinions.
Peace
If this woman is suspected of using drugs then by all means give her the drug tests. We all agree that that may be warranted. If the fact that her time improved by ten seconds over a six month period is a clear sign that she may have been doping then throw every drug tests known to man at her. But when did gender testing with a gynecologist become part of a drug investigation? When do men get tested for their gender as part of an investigation into their doping? Maybe men who participate in figure skating with exceptional grace and poise should have their chromosomes tested to make sure they’re straight up male.
The questions are moot. The woman is just so much more manly than others. Her coach is guilty of dealing with banned substances in the past so this is justification to question her gender now. All the factors that were part of her physique at the end of that race were there at the beginning. Her manliness didn’t become a factor until she won. Now people want to cry foul and go beyond what is a reasonable indication for the necessary drug testing.
But hey, the same thing happened back in 1936 when Dora Ratjen refused to shower with the women because he didn’t want anyone to see his penis and he was white. That’s all some of us need to see that this is all fair and above board and any racism that is involved is rather limited and truly insignificant.
Peace
As I pointed out in my earlier post, I have no issues with Asa, brotherpeacekeeper. If I had an issue with him, I would have taken it up with him. In much the same way, if you had an issue with my tone or my comments, one would think you would’ve addressed them immediately following my “contemptible” post.
What I’m doing now is pointing out the obvious; sarcasm, etc are all aspects of very heated debates. By referencing Asa, Im merely pointing out your hypocrisy with regard to cherry-picking “contemptible” comments.
And the definition of “contempt” is not up for debate, nor is it a matter of opinion.
–noun
1. the feeling with which a person regards anything considered mean, vile, or worthless; disdain;
I just don’t think my criticism of you and your argument meet this definition.
Yvette,
If you have no issue with asabagna then why bring his words up? As I have tried to say before, the contempt we display towards each other is better left out of the debate. And maybe the definition of “contempt” is not open to debate. But neither is the definition of “sarcasm”:
I do believe this definition of your admitted choice of expression meets this criteria.
Peace
BP, surely you can’t be unfamiliar with post-match, post-race tests of these kinds? Heard of the Tour de France? Do you recall a certain American who supposedly won the event who tested positive for drugs? Probably not.
Clearly, under the rules and regs of the IAAF, they have the right to request/require testing of athletes, individually and collectively – at THEIR discretion. No, they did not consult with you or me; they have their own bylaws which, I assume, they had in place prior to your girl winning the 800.
If Semenya’s rights are being violated, she could have chosen to make a case of it; I doubt that they are. Again, she’s not the first track athlete singled out for testing.
I want to see things clearly in this and other issues, see what’s there, not go through life seeing racism in my soup. I think that there is a way to be alert to racism, to be sensitive to its presence and also be able to deal with complexity, see complexity where it exists. I don’t get the sense that you can.
My sense of your view is that its your life’s work to find and ferret out racism everywhere. That is a dangerous, hallucinatory mentality, because it tends to bend and warp reality to its rigid view…Not to mention the focus on a negative, the focus on the problem, rather than the solution.
White folks are going to be white folks; racism is going to be racism, but if all you do is count racist sheep, how do you propose to find solutions to the problem you supposedly oppose. How can you be in fight mode and mentality, when we/THIS thing called AfroSpear is supposed to be about building something?
What are we building with our racial incident ambulance chasing? “Oops, they did it again…there them white folks go again being racist” when we are killing ourselves in record numbers.
The Semenya issue – on this website – ceased to be about her a long time ago. It is about consciousness, or the lack thereof, staying stuck in a paradigm, or getting outside of it to see its contours; its about graduating from victim to human being.
Its about training our gaze on the racism within us, not just outside of us, having the maturity and discipline to look first in the mirror, seeing just how the enemy within operates and functions.
The same mind will do the same thing until it can see over the lid of the box it keeps itself in. I choose to grow, BP, and that includes growing out of my own myopia, kneejerk-ism and desire to tie a simple bow on a complex issue.
thefreeslave,
I believe I did hear a little something about a little race called the Tour de France. I believe I heard that someone tested positive for drugs. What I didn’t hear is that because someone was suspected of using banned substances that they had their gender called into question and met with a gynecologist. But I will admit that I may have simply missed that part.
I have no problem with your boys and girls at the IAAF and their rules that requires testing at their discretion. I don’t even have a problem with the fact that the IAAF doesn’t administer their judgments fairly. No one said anything about Ms. Semenya’s rights being violated. The woman has the right to walk away from the whole affair and go back to her quiet life prior to this circus being started. In fact, that was what she wanted to do when she was ordered to submit to drug tests, gender tests, psychological testing, and etcetera. She’s not the first athlete to be singled out for gender testing. She certainly won’t be the last as long as the IAAF exists.
I don’t have a problem with you simplifying my position as some kind of life work to root out racism wherever it exists. You’re not the first to try and paint me as someone who has lost all perspective on racism. You certainly won’t be the last.
Nevertheless, the fact remains that this sister is being unfairly charged with being something other than a woman on some seriously speculative evidence. People are imagining all kinds of things about her character and gender that are unwarranted. You don’t want to see racism in your soup, but even you made an offhand comment implying that you saw that the girl had a five o’clock shadow. White folks are going to be white folks. But with black folks like this who needs white people around?
You are perfectly correct in your contention that this has stopped being about Ms. Semenya or the IAAF or white people a long time ago. The whole issue has morphed into shedding some light on this dysfunction that we call a black community. We sit back and allow others to judge and define us, selectively test us for gender and other measures of humanity before we will allow ourselves to support each other. And if this is your idea of growth and consciousness then I must say your idea of sleep will undoubtedly be much better.
Peace
BP First of all, I don’t think that you know what I mean by “growth and consciousness” so it is best we not discuss concepts we aren’t both familiar with.
Secondly, Semenya is not the first or only athlete subjected to gender testing; in fact, I don’t know of ONE other African who has been subjected to a gender test. Or was that just a cunning plot ala, “Minority Report”, to get an African in due time?
Its pretty comical how you distort my words or Yvette’s to bend them to a world view conditioned and controlled by racism/white supremacy. R/WS is a dynamic that we are all subject to but there is such a thing as stepping back from it (if we have the capacity to realize the need to step back), from that conditioning process.
Most in my experience can’t. They are too close, too invested, too programmed. That is the slumber that some of us point to, that I point to. This little discourse is another education in how you can’t make a horse drink when its heels are dug in.
And the defense of your kind of thinking is to some kind of “color loyalty” instead of the truth. Yeah, I’m waiting for “facts”, or “proof”, from the “enemy white man”, as if I can’t think for myself.
We’re supposed to stand for something bigger than the group, bigger than skin color. We’re supposed to have principles, BP, beyond “my color tis of thee .”
If that ain’t the afterbirth of R/WS I don’t know what is.
While you doth protest Ms. Semenya’s plight, admirably, you condemn those who have “questions.” If your position can’t stand questions, if Semenya can’t stand questions, if asking for verification in the face of “questions”, questions that other women of non-color have confronted…suck it up cuz that’s the price of membership in the club.
We live in THE world – not black Utopia – and in that world we will deal with institutions that may or may not mean us any good capriciously…and inconsistently. But rather than stay awake, pay attention, see what’s really there, see the REAL offenses against humanity, it is far easier to play the tape and lip sync one’s charges and counter charges.
I say we cripple our people when every perceived plight becomes a protest, a cause celebre, another brick in the wall of our persecution. That energy is precious and could be used for other things – like growing the hell up.
@thefreeslave
Well said, I’d intended to post another comment but I try not to make a habit of being repetitive or inconsequential …. you expressed my sentiments perfectly….
Yvette
thefreeslave,
It’s unfortunate you think you see your words being distorted. Maybe you should try being more careful with the things you say. That way, any distortion could be kept to a minimum and we can stick to the true subject at hand. You talk about growth and consciousness as if these concepts are exclusive to black unity or community. If these concepts you speak of are so foreign then you’re right that you should leave them out of your argument.
You talked about middle ground. But then you use the same proverbial off/on switch to talk about racism and white supremacy as some conditioned process for unenlightened black people. You talk about knee jerk reactions and such, but fail to hold that mirror up to your face to recognize your condemnations of Ms. Semenya as little more than knee jerk reactions to her appearance. Yes it’s true I might be wrapped up in color loyalty. But to me, that sounds a lot better than color abandonment.
And yes, I think you are very capable of thinking all by your self. I also think you are capable of being deluded into thinking that somehow, your superior, independent thought processes are the only ones that matter here, as if this is all some “Green Acres” episode and you’re the one cat walking around in a buttoned up vest rolling his eyes at everybody else in town. Us black folk here in Hooterville (otherwise known as Black you-toe-PEE-ah) don’t know nuttin’ ‘bout thinkin’ fo’ self. Wez gots to think togeth’r.
We’re supposed to have principles beyond color. But when do those principles require us to negate the fact that it is our color that is the basis for the disparity that is so prevalent in this real world? Oh my! There goes my conditioning again. I guess a tiger really can’t change his stripes. And if that’s truly the case, what are those stripes you wear today say about your character and where you started?
You say we live in the real world and we have to deal with institutions that may not mean us any good. But when did dealing with these various institutions mean turning a blind eye against this harm and instead attack the ones standing next to you who still have the ability to see what’s going on and say something about it?
You might think you’re the wizened dog here ready to grow your consciousness with a lifetime of experience of black people who couldn’t change. But if that’s the alternative, I’d rather keep my -isms and call a wrong whenever I actually see, perceive that I see, or even think that I saw a wrong. You might not agree with my principles. And if that’s the case, I certainly don’t agree with yours. But nevertheless, we have our principles and they are ours to keep and to defend when necessary.
So I am programmed. That’s okay because in the final analysis we all are. You think I’m programmed to react to racism, to make this my life’s work. If that’s the case, one must admit I have a lifetime of employment ahead of me. I think you’ve been programmed to point the finger of contempt at black people who don’t fit your nifty little paradigm of growth and consciousness. You accuse others of having knee jerk reactions. Don’t look now but it seems your foot is awfully busy.
Peace
Sorry freeslave but I have been looking all over for this “man gate” in her past and have found no people crying foul until now. And just for the record I don’t have a problem with you or anyone else saying that she looks like a man. That is your right as a human being, to say whatever you please. But I take note when people start slandering others with statements such as she has a 5’oclock shadow and putting men to shame.
Like I said before there are plenty of women in this world with a 5’oclock shadows from medical reasons or deep voices such as Tallulah Bankhead who was considered VERY feminine. Not to mention if that is the case, do we also do gender assassination for guys such as Chris Tucker who has an extremely high pitched voice? Is he a woman now?
And just a little side note, she didn’t come from nowhere and her times only improved once she got a trainer. Not to mention you can drop the doping story as she has been tested and passed. So let’s remember that just because a person has screwed up in the past does not mean that they are guilty without any proof. Yes, her coach WAS a scumbag, doesn’t make him a current scumbag.
Don’t you think that you are placing way too much on this coach rather than this woman’s raw talent? You assume that she only improved because she is doping or a man. I never knew that improving ones ability was a man thing. And you also say things such as a woman can’t have or do blah, blah, blah.
Excuse me sir? I think you are seriously walking the sexist line, racism be damned. There are women out there who can out do plenty of men in plenty of things. We saw that when that dudely looking female named Billy Jean King whooped up on Bobby Riggs.
She looks extremely manly even though you feel that somehow she doesn’t. Maybe if she had a flat chest like Semanya you would have been pointing her out as well. I personally don’t like this no matter if the woman is white, black or freaking green.
These women have ALL had a damn feminine examination. I don’t think that a psychologist can add anything more. And as far as genetic testing goes, I think that this is a waste as well. If this female has a difference which makes her more susceptible to testosterone then too bad. That is her gift.
Michael Phelps has an abnormality of a large torso and a small lower body which gives him a great advantage in the pool and no one is throwing his abnormal butt out of swimming or calling foul. And we KNOW for a fact that he is a drug user. Why? Why does his abnormality get seen as a plus while this girls abnormality IF she has one, is being sought after like the fountain of youth? Sounds to me like we have a problem Houston!
Like I said before should we ban all mesomorphs so the endomorphs have a chance? Arnold Schwarzenegger has the natural ability of all mesomorphs to gain more muscle mass more quickly than other body types. Should he have been thrown out of bodybuilding because he has a genetic difference which made him a better challenger?
Of course not because that is what we are looking for someone who can do whatever it is better than everyone else naturally. For all we know she did it naturally. She had her gynecological testing like every other female in the damn race. If she has a genetic anomaly that shows her as female yet gives her the ability to process more testosterone then too damn bad for the losers.
She has every right to race as a female with female genitalia. Doesn’t every last one of those women have a genetic anomaly that allows them to run faster than the majority of women in the world let alone a majority of the men in the world even with their testosterone? Where the heck does it end?
I just don’t see trying to ruin a person’s life as something that is fair and just. It may not be about race but it is about ruining a person. I have also listened to her speak and sorry you are not convincing me. And that could be because I have seen plenty of dudely looking women roll into the hospital sounding like men with short hair and muscular frames yet popping out a baby. So sorry, as long as a doctor agreed she has the right stuff in the right places, I’m done!
@Lubangakene… bruh it’s great to have you back participating in discussions (and posting). It certainly makes this forum a more dynamic and thought-provoking arena. You are correct that the issue of this discussion has moved on from being primarily about Ms. Semenya, so let me provide some clarity and perspective, even though it is my own, on where this has drifted to.
First, you have been just as quick and adamant in your position that Ms. Semenya is a man… or a “dude” as you prefer to call her… as BP (and I) have been to our position that the controversy surrounding her gender is primarily motivated by racism. However, BP (and I) have clearly stated…more than once… that if the tests do confirm that she is a man or more male than female, we are willing to reconsider our position. BP (and I) have also clearly acknowledged that in light of her incredible progress in her event and the history of her coach, that it is reasonable that she should be subjected to drug testing, like all other athletes. You seem to miss or dismiss these points in this discussion and just as easily distort and bend BP’s words to, as you describe it: “a world view conditioned and controlled by racism/white supremacy”, that you accuse him of doing.
So the issue has become, on a certain level, one of “who and when” do we support one of our own. I am unashamed of my love for African/Black people. Call it “color loyalty” if you must, there is no shame in that for me. However, my support for any individual is conditional. The question is, specifically in this case, do I wait to support Ms. Semenya now, or do I wait until she has been determined to be a woman? And determined to be so by whom!? I choose to support her now. I choose to take the word of her family and friends that she is a woman, to form the basis of that support… now.
In the future, if she is found to be doping, or a fraud in that she is truly a male posing as a female, then she will lose my support and I will acknowledge that I was or allowed myself to be duped. Also, if she is found to have the medical condition Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS), then I will admit that I may have been wrong in my position that her being subjected to gender testing was based on racism. I have no problem admitting when I am wrong. (In fact I have been wrong once before, when I thought I was wrong about an issue and I wasn’t…lol!) These are the conditions that I have set. So I don’t need to wait for the future results of the gender test to give my support to this African woman. I choose to acknowledge her accomplishments as a female athlete for all of the reasons I (and BP) have stated throughout this discussion.
Now you may not see it this way. You may choose to wait for the results. That is your perogative. As you stated above: “I don’t KNOW the facts. The fact may be that she is all woman, is not using drugs and is a simply a stud athlete. If that is the case, I will have no problem admitting that my suspicions were incorrect.” Well if that is truly the case, then why can’t BP (and I) be allowed our opinion, without being condemned as some sort of race-mongers, even if it turns out to be incorrect.
By the way, after our quick conversation on Saturday night (sorry bruh, I will try to return your call tomorrow… life happened so I wasn’t able to call you on Sunday), I went and reviewed a couple of her interviews on youtube, with your comments and observations in mind, and it is still my opinion that Caster Semenya is a woman.
Second, as BP so rightly stated: “The Afrospear was intended to be a discussion place for the people of African descent.” As such, then varying and opposing opinions have to be welcomed and not condemned. We come from a variety of backgrounds and experiences and therefore the way we process events and see the world may be from totally different perspectives. With that being said, we all have a calling and need to appreciate each others gifts. I believe that BP has an incredible ability, I would even refer to it as a form of “spiritual discernment”, when it comes to issues of race… plus I find him to be an excellent writer. So it may certainly be, as you stated above, “his life work to ferret out racism everywhere.” Well, what if that’s truly his calling!? You may have a different calling… a different gift to share and enlighten us with. So what makes his gift “dangerous and hallucinatory”, while yours “special and real”. I believe all of us here, as you state above, “want to see things clearly in this and other issues, see what’s there…” The point then is to add your gift to his in an effort to move all of us towards a place of clarity, not criticize and debase it, which only sets us on the path to darkness and more confusion.
I frequently read BP’s blog and this may surprise you (and him) but most times I don’t agree with his views. However, I would never refer to him as being engaged in “racial incident ambulance chasing”. Far from it. He and I have had our heated discussions, but I can say that even though at times I may not agree with his opinions or view of the world, more often than not he has caused me to look at an issue from a different perspective that I did not, or would not have considered… and yes, even sometimes come over to his point of view. I appreciate and thank him for this. I don’t demonize him and close him out because he has a different way of looking at the world than I do.
Now does any of this sound familiar to you? Although I have been accused of finding racism under every rock and gazing into the abyss of racism for far too long, when we first started discussing issues years ago… yes it has been years… we had heated discussion where I was the one telling you that everything bad that happenned to Black people wasn’t necessarily the fault of White people and we need to primarily focus within ourselves… individually… if we wanted to make real change to better our lot in life as a community. You in turn, opened my eyes to the evils of the subtleties of racism and how it is much more insidious and destructive to our community, especially when it cloaks itself as being just the accepted, normal way of doing things… like the gender based testing of Ms. Semenya just because she doesn’t conform to a eurocentric standard of femininity and won a race. So you are to blame for me thinking that it’s based on racism. I am your Frankenstein…lol!
The point is I believe we have both influenced change in each other, although on the surface, it could be said that we are extreme opposites to each other. Nevertheless our friendship grew because we were open to listening and not condemning each other because of our beliefs.
Finally, one of the reasons I believe a lot more people don’t comment here, although according to the blog stats our readership is increasing daily, is that when someone decides to comment here, they had better come “correct” and prepared. Since the contributors here are very opinionated, the discussions can quickly become heated. It’s not for the faint of heart. Although I do appreciate when someone takes the time to comment, I don’t engage in much discussion because most of the comments don’t move me to respond. However, you, BP, Yvette (yes you do give as good as you get…[;o), Sentinel, Hathor and a couple others, will often get me thinking about an issue from another prespective and start my creative juices going, sometimes my blood boiling and then it’s on. For the most part, although the sarcasm may get thick at times, we need to stay respectful of each other. That means, vigorously attack the opinion if you must, but never engage in an attack of the person. I will be the first to admit that sometimes it’s hard not to do and the “line” may at times get crossed. However, let’s remember, we’re exchanging opinions, not engaged in a struggle to beat the other person into seeing the world as we see it and quickly dismiss and demonize them if they don’t.
So let’s all turn down the “heated” rhetoric and keep our focus and engage the real enemy…whoever and whatever thay may be to us… and that’s certainly not you, me or brotherpeacmaker… (it could be Yvette though… just joking… I appreciate your contributions also my sister!)
Blessings to all!
Asapeacemaker! It has a nice ring to it!
Peace
And just when I thought I was gonna have to break out my switch blade LOL Nice way to wrap up this thread, ….although….I’m sure we’ll all be back here when the test results are in ….
Yvette
I really feel for Caster. I am a woman but when I had very short hair and wore boyish clothes I was constantly mistaken for a man. I remember once at work a woman whispering to her friend as I walked past, ‘Is It male or female?’ meaning me. I now have long hair and wear more feminine clothes because the General Public like their stereotypes and I don’t like hurtful comments. She is being treated in a very inhumane and undignified way.
Apparently, she’s now changed her coach and her look. Im not going to say a word….see for yourself.
http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/Embattled-track-star-Caster-Semenya-gets-new-coa?urn=oly,187999