http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/Embattled-track-star-Caster-Semenya-gets-new-coa?urn=oly,187999

Yvette

Peace

First, you have been just as quick and adamant in your position that Ms. Semenya is a man… or a “dude” as you prefer to call her… as BP (and I) have been to our position that the controversy surrounding her gender is primarily motivated by racism. However, BP (and I) have clearly stated…more than once… that if the tests do confirm that she is a man or more male than female, we are willing to reconsider our position. BP (and I) have also clearly acknowledged that in light of her incredible progress in her event and the history of her coach, that it is reasonable that she should be subjected to drug testing, like all other athletes. You seem to miss or dismiss these points in this discussion and just as easily distort and bend BP’s words to, as you describe it: “a world view conditioned and controlled by racism/white supremacy”, that you accuse him of doing.

So the issue has become, on a certain level, one of “who and when” do we support one of our own. I am unashamed of my love for African/Black people. Call it “color loyalty” if you must, there is no shame in that for me. However, my support for any individual is conditional. The question is, specifically in this case, do I wait to support Ms. Semenya now, or do I wait until she has been determined to be a woman? And determined to be so by whom!? I choose to support her now. I choose to take the word of her family and friends that she is a woman, to form the basis of that support… now.

In the future, if she is found to be doping, or a fraud in that she is truly a male posing as a female, then she will lose my support and I will acknowledge that I was or allowed myself to be duped. Also, if she is found to have the medical condition Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS), then I will admit that I may have been wrong in my position that her being subjected to gender testing was based on racism. I have no problem admitting when I am wrong. (In fact I have been wrong once before, when I thought I was wrong about an issue and I wasn’t…lol!) These are the conditions that I have set. So I don’t need to wait for the future results of the gender test to give my support to this African woman. I choose to acknowledge her accomplishments as a female athlete for all of the reasons I (and BP) have stated throughout this discussion.

Now you may not see it this way. You may choose to wait for the results. That is your perogative. As you stated above: “I don’t KNOW the facts. The fact may be that she is all woman, is not using drugs and is a simply a stud athlete. If that is the case, I will have no problem admitting that my suspicions were incorrect.” Well if that is truly the case, then why can’t BP (and I) be allowed our opinion, without being condemned as some sort of race-mongers, even if it turns out to be incorrect.

By the way, after our quick conversation on Saturday night (sorry bruh, I will try to return your call tomorrow… life happened so I wasn’t able to call you on Sunday), I went and reviewed a couple of her interviews on youtube, with your comments and observations in mind, and it is still my opinion that Caster Semenya is a woman.

Second, as BP so rightly stated: “The Afrospear was intended to be a discussion place for the people of African descent.” As such, then varying and opposing opinions have to be welcomed and not condemned. We come from a variety of backgrounds and experiences and therefore the way we process events and see the world may be from totally different perspectives. With that being said, we all have a calling and need to appreciate each others gifts. I believe that BP has an incredible ability, I would even refer to it as a form of “spiritual discernment”, when it comes to issues of race… plus I find him to be an excellent writer. So it may certainly be, as you stated above, “his life work to ferret out racism everywhere.” Well, what if that’s truly his calling!? You may have a different calling… a different gift to share and enlighten us with. So what makes his gift “dangerous and hallucinatory”, while yours “special and real”. I believe all of us here, as you state above, “want to see things clearly in this and other issues, see what’s there…” The point then is to add your gift to his in an effort to move all of us towards a place of clarity, not criticize and debase it, which only sets us on the path to darkness and more confusion.

I frequently read BP’s blog and this may surprise you (and him) but most times I don’t agree with his views. However, I would never refer to him as being engaged in “racial incident ambulance chasing”. Far from it. He and I have had our heated discussions, but I can say that even though at times I may not agree with his opinions or view of the world, more often than not he has caused me to look at an issue from a different perspective that I did not, or would not have considered… and yes, even sometimes come over to his point of view. I appreciate and thank him for this. I don’t demonize him and close him out because he has a different way of looking at the world than I do.

Now does any of this sound familiar to you? Although I have been accused of finding racism under every rock and gazing into the abyss of racism for far too long, when we first started discussing issues years ago… yes it has been years… we had heated discussion where I was the one telling you that everything bad that happenned to Black people wasn’t necessarily the fault of White people and we need to primarily focus within ourselves… individually… if we wanted to make real change to better our lot in life as a community. You in turn, opened my eyes to the evils of the subtleties of racism and how it is much more insidious and destructive to our community, especially when it cloaks itself as being just the accepted, normal way of doing things… like the gender based testing of Ms. Semenya just because she doesn’t conform to a eurocentric standard of femininity and won a race. So you are to blame for me thinking that it’s based on racism. I am your Frankenstein…lol!

The point is I believe we have both influenced change in each other, although on the surface, it could be said that we are extreme opposites to each other. Nevertheless our friendship grew because we were open to listening and not condemning each other because of our beliefs.

Finally, one of the reasons I believe a lot more people don’t comment here, although according to the blog stats our readership is increasing daily, is that when someone decides to comment here, they had better come “correct” and prepared. Since the contributors here are very opinionated, the discussions can quickly become heated. It’s not for the faint of heart. Although I do appreciate when someone takes the time to comment, I don’t engage in much discussion because most of the comments don’t move me to respond. However, you, BP, Yvette (yes you do give as good as you get…[;o), Sentinel, Hathor and a couple others, will often get me thinking about an issue from another prespective and start my creative juices going, sometimes my blood boiling and then it’s on. For the most part, although the sarcasm may get thick at times, we need to stay respectful of each other. That means, vigorously attack the opinion if you must, but never engage in an attack of the person. I will be the first to admit that sometimes it’s hard not to do and the “line” may at times get crossed. However, let’s remember, we’re exchanging opinions, not engaged in a struggle to beat the other person into seeing the world as we see it and quickly dismiss and demonize them if they don’t.

So let’s all turn down the “heated” rhetoric and keep our focus and engage the real enemy…whoever and whatever thay may be to us… and that’s certainly not you, me or brotherpeacmaker… (it could be Yvette though… just joking… I appreciate your contributions also my sister!)

Blessings to all!

Like I said before there are plenty of women in this world with a 5’oclock shadows from medical reasons or deep voices such as Tallulah Bankhead who was considered VERY feminine. Not to mention if that is the case, do we also do gender assassination for guys such as Chris Tucker who has an extremely high pitched voice? Is he a woman now?

And just a little side note, she didn’t come from nowhere and her times only improved once she got a trainer. Not to mention you can drop the doping story as she has been tested and passed. So let’s remember that just because a person has screwed up in the past does not mean that they are guilty without any proof. Yes, her coach WAS a scumbag, doesn’t make him a current scumbag.

Don’t you think that you are placing way too much on this coach rather than this woman’s raw talent? You assume that she only improved because she is doping or a man. I never knew that improving ones ability was a man thing. And you also say things such as a woman can’t have or do blah, blah, blah.

Excuse me sir? I think you are seriously walking the sexist line, racism be damned. There are women out there who can out do plenty of men in plenty of things. We saw that when that dudely looking female named Billy Jean King whooped up on Bobby Riggs.

She looks extremely manly even though you feel that somehow she doesn’t. Maybe if she had a flat chest like Semanya you would have been pointing her out as well. I personally don’t like this no matter if the woman is white, black or freaking green.

These women have ALL had a damn feminine examination. I don’t think that a psychologist can add anything more. And as far as genetic testing goes, I think that this is a waste as well. If this female has a difference which makes her more susceptible to testosterone then too bad. That is her gift.

Michael Phelps has an abnormality of a large torso and a small lower body which gives him a great advantage in the pool and no one is throwing his abnormal butt out of swimming or calling foul. And we KNOW for a fact that he is a drug user. Why? Why does his abnormality get seen as a plus while this girls abnormality IF she has one, is being sought after like the fountain of youth? Sounds to me like we have a problem Houston!

Like I said before should we ban all mesomorphs so the endomorphs have a chance? Arnold Schwarzenegger has the natural ability of all mesomorphs to gain more muscle mass more quickly than other body types. Should he have been thrown out of bodybuilding because he has a genetic difference which made him a better challenger?

Of course not because that is what we are looking for someone who can do whatever it is better than everyone else naturally. For all we know she did it naturally. She had her gynecological testing like every other female in the damn race. If she has a genetic anomaly that shows her as female yet gives her the ability to process more testosterone then too damn bad for the losers.

She has every right to race as a female with female genitalia. Doesn’t every last one of those women have a genetic anomaly that allows them to run faster than the majority of women in the world let alone a majority of the men in the world even with their testosterone? Where the heck does it end?

I just don’t see trying to ruin a person’s life as something that is fair and just. It may not be about race but it is about ruining a person. I have also listened to her speak and sorry you are not convincing me. And that could be because I have seen plenty of dudely looking women roll into the hospital sounding like men with short hair and muscular frames yet popping out a baby. So sorry, as long as a doctor agreed she has the right stuff in the right places, I’m done!

It’s unfortunate you think you see your words being distorted. Maybe you should try being more careful with the things you say. That way, any distortion could be kept to a minimum and we can stick to the true subject at hand. You talk about growth and consciousness as if these concepts are exclusive to black unity or community. If these concepts you speak of are so foreign then you’re right that you should leave them out of your argument.

You talked about middle ground. But then you use the same proverbial off/on switch to talk about racism and white supremacy as some conditioned process for unenlightened black people. You talk about knee jerk reactions and such, but fail to hold that mirror up to your face to recognize your condemnations of Ms. Semenya as little more than knee jerk reactions to her appearance. Yes it’s true I might be wrapped up in color loyalty. But to me, that sounds a lot better than color abandonment.

And yes, I think you are very capable of thinking all by your self. I also think you are capable of being deluded into thinking that somehow, your superior, independent thought processes are the only ones that matter here, as if this is all some “Green Acres” episode and you’re the one cat walking around in a buttoned up vest rolling his eyes at everybody else in town. Us black folk here in Hooterville (otherwise known as Black you-toe-PEE-ah) don’t know nuttin’ ‘bout thinkin’ fo’ self. Wez gots to think togeth’r.

We’re supposed to have principles beyond color. But when do those principles require us to negate the fact that it is our color that is the basis for the disparity that is so prevalent in this real world? Oh my! There goes my conditioning again. I guess a tiger really can’t change his stripes. And if that’s truly the case, what are those stripes you wear today say about your character and where you started?

You say we live in the real world and we have to deal with institutions that may not mean us any good. But when did dealing with these various institutions mean turning a blind eye against this harm and instead attack the ones standing next to you who still have the ability to see what’s going on and say something about it?

You might think you’re the wizened dog here ready to grow your consciousness with a lifetime of experience of black people who couldn’t change. But if that’s the alternative, I’d rather keep my -isms and call a wrong whenever I actually see, perceive that I see, or even think that I saw a wrong. You might not agree with my principles. And if that’s the case, I certainly don’t agree with yours. But nevertheless, we have our principles and they are ours to keep and to defend when necessary.

So I am programmed. That’s okay because in the final analysis we all are. You think I’m programmed to react to racism, to make this my life’s work. If that’s the case, one must admit I have a lifetime of employment ahead of me. I think you’ve been programmed to point the finger of contempt at black people who don’t fit your nifty little paradigm of growth and consciousness. You accuse others of having knee jerk reactions. Don’t look now but it seems your foot is awfully busy.

Peace

Well said, I’d intended to post another comment but I try not to make a habit of being repetitive or inconsequential …. you expressed my sentiments perfectly….

Yvette

Secondly, Semenya is not the first or only athlete subjected to gender testing; in fact, I don’t know of ONE other African who has been subjected to a gender test. Or was that just a cunning plot ala, “Minority Report”, to get an African in due time?

Its pretty comical how you distort my words or Yvette’s to bend them to a world view conditioned and controlled by racism/white supremacy. R/WS is a dynamic that we are all subject to but there is such a thing as stepping back from it (if we have the capacity to realize the need to step back), from that conditioning process.

Most in my experience can’t. They are too close, too invested, too programmed. That is the slumber that some of us point to, that I point to. This little discourse is another education in how you can’t make a horse drink when its heels are dug in.

And the defense of your kind of thinking is to some kind of “color loyalty” instead of the truth. Yeah, I’m waiting for “facts”, or “proof”, from the “enemy white man”, as if I can’t think for myself.

We’re supposed to stand for something bigger than the group, bigger than skin color. We’re supposed to have principles, BP, beyond “my color tis of thee .”

If that ain’t the afterbirth of R/WS I don’t know what is.

While you doth protest Ms. Semenya’s plight, admirably, you condemn those who have “questions.” If your position can’t stand questions, if Semenya can’t stand questions, if asking for verification in the face of “questions”, questions that other women of non-color have confronted…suck it up cuz that’s the price of membership in the club.

We live in THE world – not black Utopia – and in that world we will deal with institutions that may or may not mean us any good capriciously…and inconsistently. But rather than stay awake, pay attention, see what’s really there, see the REAL offenses against humanity, it is far easier to play the tape and lip sync one’s charges and counter charges.

I say we cripple our people when every perceived plight becomes a protest, a cause celebre, another brick in the wall of our persecution. That energy is precious and could be used for other things – like growing the hell up.

I believe I did hear a little something about a little race called the Tour de France. I believe I heard that someone tested positive for drugs. What I didn’t hear is that because someone was suspected of using banned substances that they had their gender called into question and met with a gynecologist. But I will admit that I may have simply missed that part.

I have no problem with your boys and girls at the IAAF and their rules that requires testing at their discretion. I don’t even have a problem with the fact that the IAAF doesn’t administer their judgments fairly. No one said anything about Ms. Semenya’s rights being violated. The woman has the right to walk away from the whole affair and go back to her quiet life prior to this circus being started. In fact, that was what she wanted to do when she was ordered to submit to drug tests, gender tests, psychological testing, and etcetera. She’s not the first athlete to be singled out for gender testing. She certainly won’t be the last as long as the IAAF exists.

I don’t have a problem with you simplifying my position as some kind of life work to root out racism wherever it exists. You’re not the first to try and paint me as someone who has lost all perspective on racism. You certainly won’t be the last.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that this sister is being unfairly charged with being something other than a woman on some seriously speculative evidence. People are imagining all kinds of things about her character and gender that are unwarranted. You don’t want to see racism in your soup, but even you made an offhand comment implying that you saw that the girl had a five o’clock shadow. White folks are going to be white folks. But with black folks like this who needs white people around?

You are perfectly correct in your contention that this has stopped being about Ms. Semenya or the IAAF or white people a long time ago. The whole issue has morphed into shedding some light on this dysfunction that we call a black community. We sit back and allow others to judge and define us, selectively test us for gender and other measures of humanity before we will allow ourselves to support each other. And if this is your idea of growth and consciousness then I must say your idea of sleep will undoubtedly be much better.

Peace

Clearly, under the rules and regs of the IAAF, they have the right to request/require testing of athletes, individually and collectively – at THEIR discretion. No, they did not consult with you or me; they have their own bylaws which, I assume, they had in place prior to your girl winning the 800.

If Semenya’s rights are being violated, she could have chosen to make a case of it; I doubt that they are. Again, she’s not the first track athlete singled out for testing.

I want to see things clearly in this and other issues, see what’s there, not go through life seeing racism in my soup. I think that there is a way to be alert to racism, to be sensitive to its presence and also be able to deal with complexity, see complexity where it exists. I don’t get the sense that you can.

My sense of your view is that its your life’s work to find and ferret out racism everywhere. That is a dangerous, hallucinatory mentality, because it tends to bend and warp reality to its rigid view…Not to mention the focus on a negative, the focus on the problem, rather than the solution.

White folks are going to be white folks; racism is going to be racism, but if all you do is count racist sheep, how do you propose to find solutions to the problem you supposedly oppose. How can you be in fight mode and mentality, when we/THIS thing called AfroSpear is supposed to be about building something?

What are we building with our racial incident ambulance chasing? “Oops, they did it again…there them white folks go again being racist” when we are killing ourselves in record numbers.

The Semenya issue – on this website – ceased to be about her a long time ago. It is about consciousness, or the lack thereof, staying stuck in a paradigm, or getting outside of it to see its contours; its about graduating from victim to human being.

Its about training our gaze on the racism within us, not just outside of us, having the maturity and discipline to look first in the mirror, seeing just how the enemy within operates and functions.

The same mind will do the same thing until it can see over the lid of the box it keeps itself in. I choose to grow, BP, and that includes growing out of my own myopia, kneejerk-ism and desire to tie a simple bow on a complex issue.

If you have no issue with asabagna then why bring his words up? As I have tried to say before, the contempt we display towards each other is better left out of the debate. And maybe the definition of “contempt” is not open to debate. But neither is the definition of “sarcasm”:

-noun
1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.

I do believe this definition of your admitted choice of expression meets this criteria.

Peace

What I’m doing now is pointing out the obvious; sarcasm, etc are all aspects of very heated debates. By referencing Asa, Im merely pointing out your hypocrisy with regard to cherry-picking “contemptible” comments.

And the definition of “contempt” is not up for debate, nor is it a matter of opinion.

–noun
1. the feeling with which a person regards anything considered mean, vile, or worthless; disdain;

I just don’t think my criticism of you and your argument meet this definition.

The questions are moot. The woman is just so much more manly than others. Her coach is guilty of dealing with banned substances in the past so this is justification to question her gender now. All the factors that were part of her physique at the end of that race were there at the beginning. Her manliness didn’t become a factor until she won. Now people want to cry foul and go beyond what is a reasonable indication for the necessary drug testing.

But hey, the same thing happened back in 1936 when Dora Ratjen refused to shower with the women because he didn’t want anyone to see his penis and he was white. That’s all some of us need to see that this is all fair and above board and any racism that is involved is rather limited and truly insignificant.

Peace

“Wasn’t it Asa who said to me: If your ‘perception is your reality’ then you need glasses. nuff said.”

If you have issues with what asabagna said then you should take them up with asabagna. I do believe I said that we should be able to discuss this issue openly without the need to disregard each other’s perspective with such contempt. I never said who was guilty or who wasn’t. I am not exempt from my own charge. To what degree we view contempt as disregard and vice-versa will remain as individual as any other opinions. You may see it as a strong word. That’s your opinion. Obviously, I see things differently. You think you are guiltless. That’s another one of your opinions.

Peace

Racism is a dynamic that exists, globally, all of us can agree on that. Racism exists in sports, racism exists in track, racism exists in the brain-trust that made the decision to test Semenya.

Racism also exists in us. Now, I don’t deny that racism exists, or that it could be/is a factor in the decision to “test/examine” Semenya. But there are other factors and they are clearly evident.

Someone noted that Semenya didn’t set any records, therefore, how can we suspect anything. She had control over how fast she ran; the fact that she set no record is meaningless. She ran as relaxed a race as you will ever see, with no observable strain. Could she not have run the race to win, rather than obliterate the field, in order to throw off the scent?

The fact that the woman looks like a man facially and bodily, that her voice is indistinguishable from a man’s, that her time in the 800 improved dramatically over the last six month (people don’t suddenly shave 10 seconds off of their race times), that her coach is a known drug cheat, that many of her traits are those of a man and/or doper…

I don’t see how one can fail to note the significance of these issues and just boil it down to race. And let’s be clear: to test her is not to strip her outright. To test is a fact finding mission; to strip her would be an outright assault.

Since white athletes have been the predominant focus of such investigations, I don’t get the fervor, the need to convict the investigators of racism.

Though racism exists, there are other Isms. Though the issue of gender has been raised, it is dismissed by its absence from the conversation. It could be claimed that this issue is more about gender than race; but those who carry the black flag run racism up the flag pole to the exclusion of everything else. That is your right.

“I think it was when you wrote, ”But if you look for racism behind every nook and cranny, you’re sure to find it….”, and then followed up with ”BP and Asa I think you two have been gazing into the abyss of racism a little too long…” And there appears to be plenty of contempt for Ms. Semenya. The idea that her character and gender are called into question under some of the most blatant double standards is contemptible.”

That’s not contempt BP, it’s sarcasm at worst. And if you look back at Asa’s statements, you’ll see a similar tone. Wasn’t it Asa who said to me:

“If your “perception is your reality” then you need glasses. nuff said.”

But I’m sure you would never criticize him because he shares your position. And I understand that we’re having a heated debate, so I don’t take it personally. I give as good as I get. I’ve disagreed with Asa before and he’s disagreed with me, but I don’t internalize it, nor do I accuse him of expressing “contempt”. Tomorrow this debate will be over and we’ll be on to something else…..

Contempt is a very strong word BP, it implies “vileness” and “worthlessness” and I’ve never regarded your position on this post as any of those things. You’ve accused me of something of which I’m not guilty. We can agree to disagree regarding Semenya, but to say that I, or anyone else, expressed contempt at any point in our conversation is simply untrue….

You are too caught up in semantics.

“No one on this post that I am aware of has ever asserted a belief that there are no extremes. I have always accepted the possibility that Semenya is a woman. But I also accept the possibility that she is a man, or she has a medical condition which could be the cause of her masculine physique. You’re over-exaggerating the positions taken by myself and thefreeslave.”

And in that same vein of thought, no one on this post that I am aware of has ever asserted a belief that you or thefreeslave said that there were no extremes. Your contention that you are willing to accept the fact that Ms. Semenya might be a woman reeks of someone trying to hedge their bets. You reasoning sounds a lot like someone who thinks that there is a possibility that young blacks are criminals therefore it is okay to hold them on grounds of suspicion.

Please note, I did not say that you think young blacks might be criminals and therefore it’s okay to hold them on grounds of suspicion. I merely made an analogy.

The fact that history is full of examples of white people being suspected of cheating with respect to gender doesn’t mean squat. For example, history is full of white people who were hanged for crimes. That does little to dissuade the argument that racism was the motivation for black people being hanged. To borrow your line of reasoning, no one on this post ever said white people have never been accused of cheating with respect to gender.

”I am not willing to stand by anyone unless I am absolutely 100% convinced of the rightness or wrongness of his or her claim.”

Obviously! But that’s you and other people who want to keep open the possibility that this woman as some kind of exception of nature. It would be a logical position had there been anything to support the contention. However, people pointing to Ms. Semenya and saying that her voice is too deep and she runs too fast are not reasons enough to support the idea that she is not female. You might not feel comfortable supporting someone until you get your bona fide certification of authenticity. I don’t have a problem believing this young lady is a woman, has been raised as a woman, until I get bona fide certification that she is not.

”“When exactly did quality of voice become part of the standard of what identifies a woman?

When performance enhancing drugs and/or hormonal, chromosomal , and gender irregularities were linked to shrinkage of female “teats”, increase of muscle mass, deepening of voice, etc is when the standard of what identifies a woman as a woman began to change.”

If that is your contention then why aren’t the other flat chest women with considerable muscle mass that are on the track running with Ms. Semenya are not being tested because they easily fit into those categories as well. Why are you willing to single out Ms. Semenya and not apply these standards to the other women on the track who appear to have the same possibilities?

” You yourself pointed out in an earlier post that all of the women in the 800 meter race would only fit into a training bra. So let’s leave behind the premise that she’s being picked on because she doesn’t have 3 inch nails or ‘DD’ cups.”

I have no clue where you’re going with this comment. Yes it is true that I said that all the women in this race would only fit into a training bra. So again, I have to ask, why Ms. Semenya is being singled out?

” When did I, or thefreeslave, voice contempt at your belief or your position?”

I think it was when you wrote, ”But if you look for racism behind every nook and cranny, you’re sure to find it….”, and then followed up with ”BP and Asa I think you two have been gazing into the abyss of racism a little too long…” And there appears to be plenty of contempt for Ms. Semenya. The idea that her character and gender are called into question under some of the most blatant double standards is contemptible.

” There are so many brothers and sisters in the IAAF who are dominating their sport and haven’t been selected for gender testing or marginalization of any kind.”

And because house negroes were happy to eat at their master’s leftovers who can accuse anyone on the plantation of being unfair to the descendants of Africa?

Peace

“Simply because there is a middle ground doesn’t mean that there are no extremes.”

No one on this post that I am aware of has ever asserted a belief that there are no extremes. I have always accepted the possibility that Semenya is a woman. But I also accept the possibility that she is a man, or she has a medical condition which could be the cause of her masculine physique. You’re over-exaggerating the positions taken by myself and thefreeslave. Could suspicion of Semnya’s gender be racially motivated? Yes, but, historically, the athletes selected for gender tests have not been of African descent. So, again, I see no evidence indicating that this is anything more than a sincere effort by the IAAF to be fair to its athletes.

“I am willing to stick by this young lady through this ordeal. While others look at her and see nothing but her resemblance to a man”

I am not willing to stand by anyone unless I am absolutely 100% convinced of the rightness or wrongness of his or her claim. If the gender test reveals that Semanya has both male and female genitalia, or has AIS, or has chromosomal abnormalities, will you still stand by her? Even if those abnormalities give her an unfair advantage? And is that fair to her competitors, many of whom are of African descent?

“When exactly did quality of voice become part of the standard of what identifies a woman? When did the size of a woman’s teats dictate the level of femininity?”

When performance enhancing drugs and/or hormonal, chromosomal , and gender irregularities were linked to shrinkage of female “teats”, increase of muscle mass, deepening of voice, etc is when the standard of what identifies a woman as a woman began to change.

“The race is called the women’s 800 meter race, not the women with long hair, boobs, and female mannerisms 800 meter race.”

You yourself pointed out in an earlier post that all of the women in the 800 meter race would only fit into a training bra. So let’s leave behind the premise that she’s being picked on because she doesn’t have 3 inch nails or “DD” cups.

“I for one think we should be able to discuss this issue openly without the need to disregard each other’s perspective with such contempt”

Disagreeing with you and showing contempt for you, or Semenya, are two very different things. When did I, or thefreeslave, voice contempt at your belief or your position?

“Brothers and sisters out doing their thing, being the best that they can be, representing the black community deserve the support of the black community.”

You’re exactly right! There are so many brothers and sisters in the IAAF who are dominating their sport and haven’t been selected for gender testing or marginalization of any kind.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one BP…..